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Thread: Prototype system

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  1. #1
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Default Prototype system

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    This post is intended for the people in here that have extensive field knowledge. I am building a prototype to replace my last prototype system that has worked perfectly for many years. I design and test units regularly and once my testing is complete I usually reinstall the old design into a family members house. This new design is completely over the top. I am trying to build a single valve system with 4 different medias using off the shelf, non special ordered items. Most of my previous prototypes include a lot of hand machined parts. This design will have one hidden adapter that is not yet available, but shoud be in the fall. Here is the general design:
    1: Fleck 7000XTR
    2: 10x22 double open tank, 1/2 cu. ft. Turbidex or equivalent.
    3: 14x47 tank w/ 10% crosslink resin, 2 cubic feet
    4: 24 pounds of KDF-55 in a 7x18 tank
    5: Catalytic GAC, 2 cubic feet in a 12x47 tank

    The diagram below shows the water flow. All of my math calculations show a minimal pressure drop for a residential application and I should be able to maintain a peak flow rate of over 15 GPM. Sevice flow will be slightly less, but the truly functional medias at higher flow rates will be the softener and GAC tanks. The KDF is limited in its service rate but it will flow over 20 GPM in this configuration. Here is the question, for a municipal water application, other than being completely ridiculous, is there any major flaws in the design that you can see? I am hoping to have a system built and installed in a coupl of weeks. I am working on an article for publication in September and this system will be a small part of it if it works. One of my biggest concerns has been the frequeency of backwashing for the KDF, but this has proven to be a non issue in my old design which also includes a similar KDF tank backwashing approximately every 10-15 days. I have 20 of those units on the feild for testing and all have worked for many years without failure of the KDF.
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    Last edited by ditttohead; 09-24-2012 at 02:43 PM. Reason: Updated Prototype picture

  2. #2
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    My concerns are that if the single valve head fails then all the units go down.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

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    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    True, this would not be an ideal design for a well application or application where water treatment is considered critical vs. a luxury item like a municipal supply. I built the majority of the system last night, but I will probably not have the time to install it for a couple of weeks. I will post a picture of the assembled system next week.

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    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    It looks to me as if you are reinventing the wheel and the thing would be very expensive and take up a lot of floor or other space while I see no need for it.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Totally agree with you on this. it is more of an application and green technology design for very specific applications. We are testing some new adapters to see what can be done, more than what should be done.

    Can we use a single valve and 4 tanks worth of media, can we meet a real world flow of 15 GPM while still maintaining 98% chlorine, Organics, heavy metal, hardness, and sediment above 5 micron rejection?

    Our multi meida tanks with and without dividers are only acheinving 80% at higher flow rates for chlorine, 70% for organics, and 70% heavy metal reduction at that flow rate. While this is extemely good, it can be improved upon. We use this type of unit testing to see what can be done, then start scaling it back too a marketable design later. The pictures shown are huge sellers primarily becasue they are fairly inexpensive, save a lot of waste water, and are simpler than a dual valved system. These are the replacements to the ugly blue prototype I have now. Name:  Ecotwin.jpg
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    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    If nothing else I have to give you a high five for creativity. The thinking man will always prevail
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

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    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    The way I understand the flow is 1. Turbidex 2. Resin 3. KDF and then 4. Carbon. My question would be, don't you worry about chlorine degrading the resin? Also, Neurtripure has the same set up in a single tank design (cartridge for the KDF and carbon)without the Turbidex.

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    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mialynette2003 View Post
    The way I understand the flow is 1. Turbidex 2. Resin 3. KDF and then 4. Carbon. My question would be, don't you worry about chlorine degrading the resin? Also, Name:  watersystem.jpg
Views: 513
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    Mixed media inside the same tank do not work well, no matter what people try to tell me. We have virtually every design and mnufacturers units here in house on our test benches and they all suffer similar issues. Media contact time is critical for the medias to remove contaminants from water to desired levels. The multi level systems with and without internal dividers are a very inexpensive way to get some of the affect of each media. GAC has a rated flow of 5 GPM per square foot with a minimum bed depth of 28 inches. This translates out to a service flow rate of less than 5 GPM for a 10x54 tank with the standard carbon load of 1.5 Cu. Ft. this is more of a technical issue than the real world. Medias tendto be massively underated as anybody who does chlorine injection will state that a 1 cubic foot carbon tank will remove virtually all of the chlorine even up to 10 gpm. This is true, but the carbon is being used for much more than just chlorine removal, it is being used for the removal of dissolved organic chemicals, etc.
    The KDF is also a contact time dependent media to function as it is rated. Even my 28 pound KDF tank has a technical rating of only 3 GPM. it will flow at over 20, but is it doing what it is rated to do? Of course not.

    My original design has the resin last, but that creates some problems with the lack of off the shelf parts to build it. my lat prototype is shown below, the tanks used for this system used to be reaidly available, the manufacturing has since moved to India and the cost and lead times make it prohibitive.

    I have substituted 10% resin to minimize the damage to the resin from Chlorine and Chloramine. I agree with you that the KDF and GAC should go first, but for this design, I had to sacrafice the order.

  9. #9
    DIY Member ByteMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Mixed media inside the same tank do not work well, no matter what people try to tell me. We have virtually every design and mnufacturers units here in house on our test benches and they all suffer similar issues. Media contact time is critical for the medias to remove contaminants from water to desired levels. The multi level systems with and without internal dividers are a very inexpensive way to get some of the affect of each media. GAC has a rated flow of 5 GPM per square foot with a minimum bed depth of 28 inches. This translates out to a service flow rate of less than 5 GPM for a 10x54 tank with the standard carbon load of 1.5 Cu. Ft. this is more of a technical issue than the real world. Medias tendto be massively underated as anybody who does chlorine injection will state that a 1 cubic foot carbon tank will remove virtually all of the chlorine even up to 10 gpm. This is true, but the carbon is being used for much more than just chlorine removal, it is being used for the removal of dissolved organic chemicals, etc.
    The KDF is also a contact time dependent media to function as it is rated. Even my 28 pound KDF tank has a technical rating of only 3 GPM. it will flow at over 20, but is it doing what it is rated to do? Of course not.

    My original design has the resin last, but that creates some problems with the lack of off the shelf parts to build it. my lat prototype is shown below, the tanks used for this system used to be reaidly available, the manufacturing has since moved to India and the cost and lead times make it prohibitive.

    I have substituted 10% resin to minimize the damage to the resin from Chlorine and Chloramine. I agree with you that the KDF and GAC should go first, but for this design, I had to sacrafice the order.
    What is your experience with that KDF canister that is retro fitted in a softener tank?

    In your above prototype, would it be a good idea to use a taller KDF tank and more resin (to increase contact time)?

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