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Thread: Tank air pressure for non bladder water tank

  1. #31
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Wellman View Post
    You are talking about an AVC, but what you really mean is air release. You don't have air releases on jet pumps...
    I don't know if you just like splitting hairs or you have un uncontrollable urge to correct me. If it releases surplus air, it controls the volume, so it's an AVC. WellMate calls it an air volume control on my tank.
    http://www.wellmate.com/en-US/produc...connect-series

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Wellman View Post
    ...it's not the air pressure. It's always the volume.
    It's a pressure vessel. One cannot have air volume without pressure and still have useful drawdown. Not even in Texas. The volume of air under pressure acts like a spring to push the water out of the tank. Without pressure, you have only gravity. Put the tank on the roof and we won't need to have this discussion.

  2. #32
    In the Trades Texas Wellman's Avatar
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    *sigh*
    I don't know why these things always come down to a pissing match.

    I don't recall exactly who brought up an AVC, but you keep referring to an AVC in the system as an air release. Don has a 2-stage jet pump. He does not need an air release because he has no excess air. You don't put air releases on a well system unless it somehow makes air, like some wells near here that are naturally gassy.

    I just love it when a DIY tries to tell me how a well system works. Let me rephrase my answer. It's not about the pressure of air in the tank, because pressure is always controlled by the pump. It doesn't matter if you put 20 psi in the tank or 60 psi or air in the tank. The pump controls the pressure, not the air. What one tries to do is achieve about a 50/50 mixture of water/air based on volume. The volume of air in the tank determines the drawdown.

    Heck, I did one the other day and supercharged it to 2/3's air. Probably had close to a 15 gallon draw down on an 82 gallon tank. Also, here's a little trick. Most pressure switches are set either 30/50 or 40/60. Tweak the switch to 30/60 to get a little better drawdown.


    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    I don't know if you just like splitting hairs or you have un uncontrollable urge to correct me. If it releases surplus air, it controls the volume, so it's an AVC. WellMate calls it an air volume control on my tank.
    http://www.wellmate.com/en-US/produc...connect-series

    It's a pressure vessel. One cannot have air volume without pressure and still have useful drawdown. Not even in Texas. The volume of air under pressure acts like a spring to push the water out of the tank. Without pressure, you have only gravity. Put the tank on the roof and we won't need to have this discussion.

  3. #33
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    I think I was the one that said that I did not have a AVC, Because they did not work for me, My pump or tank.


    Sorry if I was the one that confused the unknowing.
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  4. #34
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Wellman View Post
    *sigh*
    I don't know why these things always come down to a pissing match.
    ...
    I just love it when a DIY tries to tell me how a well system works.
    LOL it takes two to have a pissing match.
    You can get off your high horse cuz you are not the only one that knows how a well system works. Go back and reread post #7. Here, I'll make it easy for you.
    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/show...l=1#post326623
    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    My understanding is there are two types of AVC. One style only lets air out and works in conjunction with a submersible and a bleeder/snifter. The other kind takes air in and works with a piston or jet pump...
    I think this thread has probably run its course and there is nothing that you could teach me this topic, but I'm sure you will want to have the last word anyway.

  5. #35
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    LOL it takes two to have a pissing match.
    You can get off your high horse cuz you are not the only one that knows how a well system works. Go back and reread post #7. Here, I'll make it easy for you.
    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/show...l=1#post326623

    I think this thread has probably run its course and there is nothing that you could teach me this topic, but I'm sure you will want to have the last word anyway.

    I do know that the Texas Wellman knows more about the Texas Water, Tanks, Pumps and the Cowgirls than anyone in Canada will ever know.


    Give credit where credit is due...
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  6. #36
    In the Trades Texas Wellman's Avatar
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    Thanks Don. By the way, I really prefer to root for the Houston Texans, I don't care much for those Cowgirls up in Dallas.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    I do know that the Texas Wellman knows more about the Texas Water, Tanks, Pumps and the Cowgirls than anyone in Canada will ever know.


    Give credit where credit is due...

  7. #37
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    There is no such thing as "pre-pressurizing a non-bladder tank, because there is no way to keep the air in it, and the "pressure" will ALWAYS be the same as the water pressure at that moment. The best you can do is turn the pump on, and then when the tank is full, let a faucet "drip" slowly so it does not drop the system pressure too quickly. Then inject air into the tank to force the water level down to the desired point, (it will have to be by "guess" unless you have a glass sight gauge to show the water level). Then close the faucet.
    Last edited by hj; 01-05-2012 at 05:22 AM.
    Licensed residential and commercial plumber

  8. #38
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Wellman View Post
    I don't care much for those Cowgirls up in Dallas.
    Around here, an admission like that would get your man card revoked.

    hj, if the air is humid enough, the sweat level on the tank should give clear indication of the water level if you wait for the tank side to warm up to its surroundings. One can always lick the side of the tank with a propane torch to hurry along the process. I can usually tell just by holding my hand against the side of the tank, where the level is at but then around here water from the ground is damn cold.

  9. #39
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Around here, an admission like that would get your man card revoked.

    hj, if the air is humid enough, the sweat level on the tank should give clear indication of the water level if you wait for the tank side to warm up to its surroundings. One can always lick the side of the tank with a propane torch to hurry along the process. I can usually tell just by holding my hand against the side of the tank, where the level is at but then around here water from the ground is damn cold.

    Around here the humidity is almost always high.

    When I drain the tank, and then refill it it is easy to approximate the level from the sweat or just by feel.

    It would be nice if I could add the correct amount of air without draining the tank every time.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  10. #40
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Do you have a pressure gauge on the tank? I put in a nipple and a Tee so that I can have both a gauge and a schrader valve to use with my compressor. Half a century ago, I used a bicycle pump to add air to the tank. The tank was tucked under the stair landing and there was no room to stand up so I had to work the bicycle pump sideways. Remember it like it was yesterday.
    Last edited by LLigetfa; 01-05-2012 at 08:29 AM.

  11. #41
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Do you have a pressure gauge on the tank? I put in a nipple and a Tee so that I can have both a gauge and a schrader valve to use with my compressor. Half a century ago, I used a bicycle pump to add air to the tank. The tank was tucked under the stair landing and there was no room to stand up so I had to work the bicycle pump sideways. Remember it like it was yesterday.
    No gauge on the tank. Mine is mounted on the Pressure Regulator that controls the jet pressure.

    When the pump is off , I would think that it is reading the tank pressure.

    I could add another meter, but would have to worry about it freezing.

    I have a heat tape to keep the regulator and Pressure switch from freezing.
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  12. #42
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    I could add another meter, but would have to worry about it freezing...
    If you mount it high enough on the tank, it will be full of air so freezing would not be a problem unless you waterlog the tank. I have 3 gauges. My EPS15/99 shows the pressure via LED segment display, I have a gauge Tee'd off the switch, and I have a gauge Tee'd off the schrader at the top of the tank. All 3 read different. Chinese quality at its best.

  13. #43
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hj View Post
    There is no such thing as "pre-pressurizing a non-bladder tank, because there is no way to keep the air in it, and the "pressure" will ALWAYS be the same as the water pressure at that moment. The best you can do is turn the pump on, and then when the tank is full, let a faucet "drip" slowly so it does not drop the system pressure too quickly. Then inject air into the tank to force the water level down to the desired point, (it will have to be by "guess" unless you have a glass sight gauge to show the water level). Then close the faucet.
    Not so. But its a bit of an art to do a pre pressure with the water at the right level. AND count on it going down daily as the air absorbs into the water. If you have a 40 to 60 switch, and pressure to 35, you have about the same capacity as a bladder tank with its enormous draw down for cheap. the difference is the absorbtion and the fact that you loose all the air when the power goes out. Do it - tested it. works.



    My understanding is there are two types of AVC. One style only lets air out and works in conjunction with a submersible and a bleeder/snifter. The other kind takes air in and works with a piston or jet pump...
    But that is quite true. The float release is designed for submersibles.

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