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Thread: Tank air pressure for non bladder water tank

  1. #16
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    I do like the larger tank, In case of a power failure I have a little more reserve...
    How do you coordinate that with the PoCo? Do they give you advance notice? Around here it seems the power always goes out when my tank is just about empty.

    If you supercharge the tank, depending on where you draw from there may be very little water left in it to use to reprime the pump. As Texas wellman said, there is a risk of losing prime doing that.

  2. #17
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    How do you coordinate that with the PoCo? Do they give you advance notice? Around here it seems the power always goes out when my tank is just about empty.

    If you supercharge the tank, depending on where you draw from there may be very little water left in it to use to reprime the pump. As Texas wellman said, there is a risk of losing prime doing that.
    No advance notice, But I can run my pump off of my generator if needed. Fill the water tank and shut it off.

    I guess it is about a 50-50 chance that it would be empty or full, when the power fails.

    I always keep water on hand to re-prime the pump, and do not rely on the water in the tank for priming.
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  3. #18
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    When I was running galvanized tanks, I would raise them up so that the pump was lower than the tank. Also, the house was hooked to the side, up off the bottom so there was always water that could be drawn from the drain cock for priming.

    Now with a sub, priming is of no concern. WRT power outages, my pump is 240V and my genset is 120V so no joy there. Never had an outage last more than a few hours.

  4. #19
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    The water inlet to the tank is above the pump outlet and the water Outlet is at the bottom of my vertical tank that sits on a slab outside.

    During a Hurricane, we may loose power for a day or 5.

    My water tank is over 20 years old but seems solid.

    It may be about time to invest in a new one.
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  5. #20
    In the Trades Texas Wellman's Avatar
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    Unless your tank is leaking, I wouldn't replace it. They were way better made 20-30 years ago. If you do get ready and want to replace it, let me know. I can probably make you a good deal installed.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    The water inlet to the tank is above the pump outlet and the water Outlet is at the bottom of my vertical tank that sits on a slab outside.

    During a Hurricane, we may loose power for a day or 5.

    My water tank is over 20 years old but seems solid.

    It may be about time to invest in a new one.
    Last edited by Texas Wellman; 01-02-2012 at 10:43 AM.

  6. #21
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Better is a quick connect fitting from your air compressor. Put a valve behind it, [check or other] click on your air hose and pump it up hands free. Your pressure gauge will read out your charge. Also its 1/4" and flows more, rather than a 1/8"

    Do this with the tank perhaps 3/4 empty and the outlet valve closed. pump it up close to the kick on pressure.

    But if you just want air you can blow away anytime you like, just dont take a walk and let it go to 120psi. Should use an oilless rig and a dedicated clean hose.

  7. #22
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    Better is a quick connect fitting from your air compressor. Put a valve behind it, [check or other] click on your air hose and pump it up hands free. Your pressure gauge will read out your charge. Also its 1/4" and flows more, rather than a 1/8"

    Do this with the tank perhaps 3/4 empty and the outlet valve closed. pump it up close to the kick on pressure.

    But if you just want air you can blow away anytime you like, just dont take a walk and let it go to 120psi. Should use an oilless rig and a dedicated clean hose.

    Good point Ballvalve.

    I do have one airline for my power tools and one with a water filter for my sand blaster.
    And I never use the No oil Airline on the oil output.

    I was going to use a Ballvalve for the shut off and just put a 1/4 inch air nipple.

    Would that be ok ?.

    It does get below freezing here and I am not sure if that combo / Ballvalve may freeze and bust.
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  8. #23
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    During a Hurricane, we may loose power for a day or 5...
    No natural disasters around here in recent history. Last major outage was from a tree under a transmission line in Ohio although at the time they tried to blame Canada for it.

    I'd keep that tank until it has so many wood plugs in it that it looks like a porcupine.

  9. #24
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    No natural disasters around here in recent history. Last major outage was from a tree under a transmission line in Ohio although at the time they tried to blame Canada for it.

    I'd keep that tank until it has so many wood plugs in it that it looks like a porcupine.

    What Happened ? Did You all have to many Grow Lights on ? lol


    So far no leaks in my tank.


    Guess that could change after messing with it and putting the Air valve on it...
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  10. #25
    In the Trades Texas Wellman's Avatar
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    The good thing about a galv. tank is that it will keep pushing water out until there is no air left. Usually it is not a problem getting the air before the water runs out, but if you supercharge it enough I suppose you could get air. Normally I like my tanks to be about 50/50, and I don't think you'll run out of water before you hit the air. At either rate, you should have enough water to flush a few toilets, wash your hands, or brush your teeth before the pressure goes to "0". Probably the biggest reason why I'm not a fan of the little 4 gallon tank set-up. One toilet flush and you're done.

    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    How do you coordinate that with the PoCo? Do they give you advance notice? Around here it seems the power always goes out when my tank is just about empty.

    If you supercharge the tank, depending on where you draw from there may be very little water left in it to use to reprime the pump. As Texas wellman said, there is a risk of losing prime doing that.

  11. #26
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Wellman View Post
    Normally I like my tanks to be about 50/50, and I don't think you'll run out of water before you hit the air...
    Ja, 50/50 is good. I think most AVCs regulate to about that. Topping up to that in the absence of a working AVC or snifter makes sense. DonL originally stated he runs his with 25% air which is not much drawdown and if neglected won't take long to waterlog. Supercharging was suggested but it comes with the risk of air blowing resin out of a softener. The odds might be small but increases with the number of power outages.

    IKWYM about a bladderless tank continuing to push water until the pressure is nearly 0 if not supercharged. A bladder tank is nearly empty at the kick-in pressure and has very little in reserve. If a galvanized tank is supercharged to about the same as a bladder, it too would have little in reserve. Giving a bladderless tank a 20 PSI head on a 40/60 system would give you lots of reserve and more drawdown.

    I often hear people say they want a bigger tank in case the power goes out, but usually they are considering a bladder tank. Bladder tanks don't have fussy AVCs to deal with and don't need topping up so they are good for displaced city folk like Zaza Gabor (Green Acres). I'm not a fan of those little 4 gallon tanks either.

    I have a 32 gallon bladderless composite WellMate precipitation tank for iron treatment. It is hydropnuematic and supercharged to rival bladder tanks. Air is entrained with a micronizer that has be maintained and the tank has an AVC that is also a high maintenance item. Unlike a standard bladderless tank, disabling/neglecting the air injection and/or the AVC on it is not an option.

  12. #27
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Wellman View Post
    Probably the biggest reason why I'm not a fan of the little 4 gallon tank set-up. One toilet flush and you're done.
    I agree.


    4 Gallons is not enough to Flush a Texas size Turd made from a Texas sized T-Bone steak.


    I guess the people that have them do not brush their teeth. lol


    Have a Great new Year... Bigger is better, so she says...
    Last edited by DonL; 01-02-2012 at 02:27 PM. Reason: Op Error
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  13. #28
    In the Trades Texas Wellman's Avatar
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    You are talking about an AVC, but what you really mean is air release. You don't have air releases on jet pumps.

    On a 120 gallon tank or any bladder tank, it's not the air pressure. It's always the volume. Half of a 120 gallon tank is 60 gallons of water. If you have 60 gallons of water in a super-charged galv. tank, you can easily draw 20-30 gallons out before you lose all pressure. Maybe more, I've never measured. If you're tank is drawn down 10-20 gallons when the power quits, you can still probably draw 10-20 gallons minimum. It's just the luck of the draw I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Ja, 50/50 is good. I think most AVCs regulate to about that. Topping up to that in the absence of a working AVC or snifter makes sense. DonL originally stated he runs his with 25% air which is not much drawdown and if neglected won't take long to waterlog. Supercharging was suggested but it comes with the risk of air blowing resin out of a softener. The odds might be small but increases with the number of power outages.

    IKWYM about a bladderless tank continuing to push water until the pressure is nearly 0 if not supercharged. A bladder tank is nearly empty at the kick-in pressure and has very little in reserve. If a galvanized tank is supercharged to about the same as a bladder, it too would have little in reserve. Giving a bladderless tank a 20 PSI head on a 40/60 system would give you lots of reserve and more drawdown.

    I often hear people say they want a bigger tank in case the power goes out, but usually they are considering a bladder tank. Bladder tanks don't have fussy AVCs to deal with and don't need topping up so they are good for displaced city folk like Zaza Gabor (Green Acres). I'm not a fan of those little 4 gallon tanks either.

    I have a 32 gallon bladderless composite WellMate precipitation tank for iron treatment. It is hydropnuematic and supercharged to rival bladder tanks. Air is entrained with a micronizer that has be maintained and the tank has an AVC that is also a high maintenance item. Unlike a standard bladderless tank, disabling/neglecting the air injection and/or the AVC on it is not an option.
    Don, that is the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    I agree.


    4 Gallons is not enough to Flush a Texas size Turd made from a Texas sized T-Bone steak.


    I guess the people that have them do not brush their teeth. lol


    Have a Great new Year... Bigger is better, so she says...

  14. #29
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Good point Ballvalve.

    I do have one airline for my power tools and one with a water filter for my sand blaster.
    And I never use the No oil Airline on the oil output.

    I was going to use a Ballvalve for the shut off and just put a 1/4 inch air nipple.

    Would that be ok ?.

    It does get below freezing here and I am not sure if that combo / Ballvalve may freeze and bust.
    Thats what I do typically. You can elbow it down and then duct tape a bag of grocery bags over the fittings, water in the tank holds a lot of BTU's. A lot of my pipe insulation is grnmas old poly jackets. If you had a big grnma with big hooters, her bra makes a good valve insulator. Mice dont like poly as much as fiberglas. And mice really hate old womens perfume - use it liberally in the pump house.

  15. #30
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    lol

    You crack me up.

    I do agree...
    Last edited by DonL; 01-03-2012 at 11:45 AM.
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