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Thread: Pressure tank

  1. #31
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porky View Post
    Some people like Fords and some prefer Chevrolets and then there are those that don't know the difference! means nothing! Many experts test improperly. A CSV is an excellent and inexpensive addition to any private water system regardless of the pump and tank sizing. It will give the consumer a constant pressure (like when taking a shower) and will extend the live of all components in the system.
    What would your parameters be for a "proper" test?
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  2. #32
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    The best test would be to first put at least a half million of them out in the real world working everyday. Then give people some means of sharing information with each other all over the world. Now just sit back and see what kind of complaints, and how many complaints you hear about.

    Wait a minute. We have already done that! Oh but 2012 will only be the 19th year of waiting for the complaints about Cycle Stop Valves. Maybe that just isn’t long enough.

    Search hard and you may find a complaint or two. But even these will be from a misapplication, or was the fault of another component, not the CSV.

    Each unhappy customer will tell a thousand people. Happy customers will rarely tell anyone. Just Google (CU301, SQE, or Subdrive). These products have not been around half as long as the CSV and you will find dozens if not hundreds of complaints on the Internet about these devices.

    Most of the complaints you will find about the CSV were written by the same person, with a misapplied CSV, and a grudge against anything he didn’t think of first. This just proves my point about an unhappy customer, because this one person has told well over a thousand people about his problems with a CSV. Even then the CSV didn’t destroy anything. He just claims that it increased his electric bill from 10 to 20 bucks a month. Which also proves that you can make anything fail in some way if you set up the test to make that happen.

    But go ahead and “search”. List any you can find here so we can see them. You will see that the one unhappy CSV customer looks pretty foolish being the only one saying anything negative about Cycle Stop Valves. He is the kind of person who will show you a picture of his pump/motor with the spline stripped off and still try to tell you cycling is not a problem.

    The only other negative things you will find is from pump installers or engineers who have never seen a CSV and are guessing that, “certain things might or should happen”.

    19 years and counting, I guess they are still waiting for something bad to happen.
    Last edited by valveman; 01-02-2012 at 02:59 PM.

  3. #33
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    What is the warranty on the CSV. Many times that is all a person has to go by.

    Real World test are good, Backing what you sell is more better.

    That also tells how much Faith a company has on the product that they sell.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  4. #34
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    We have a five-year written warranty on our complete kits. We know the kits are installed correctly. But we never have any warranties. I replace a few valves as a courtesy, which are packed full of sand or have frozen and busted, but rarely a pinhole or any real defect. Send me a 19 year old CSV with any kind of manufactured defect, and I will replace it at no charge. Standing behind our product is one thing we are not afraid to do.

    Also, prove to me that a properly installed CSV caused the failure of any other part of the pump system, and I will take care of that as well. How is that for a warranty?
    Last edited by valveman; 01-02-2012 at 03:10 PM.

  5. #35
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valveman View Post
    We have a five-year written warranty on our complete kits. We know the kits are installed correctly. But we never have any warranties. I replace a few valves as a courtesy, which are packed full of sand or have frozen and busted, but rarely a pinhole or any real defect. Send me a 19 year old CSV with any kind of manufactured defect, and I will replace it at no charge. Standing behind our product is one thing we are not afraid to do.

    Also, prove to me that a properly installed CSV caused the failure of any other part of the pump system, and I will take care of that as well. How is that for a warranty?

    Sounds Good to me, Can't beat that with a stick.


    It is hard to find a product that is backed now a days.


    That is the way that I do business, Return customers are the best salesman.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  6. #36
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    While a lack of customer complaints may indeed be a good thing, as a test it holds little value. Remember that Easy Water also has thousands of customers and a good many customer recommendations also for a product that does absolutely nothing. No, a real test would be (and was) a side by side comparison of the product under the exact same conditions. The testing that we did showed that although "pressure" does remain fairly constant with a CSV, under residential conditions (varied draw times and varied draw volumes) a properly sized pressure tank showed about 6% less pump cycles with run times averaging only slightly less than with a CSV installed. These draws ranged from 10 seconds to as long as 15 minutes. In both cases a long draw from a high volume source ( in our case a direct 5/8 line off the pressure tank ) caused the pump to run throughout the duration of the draw with no cycling of either system. I have never seen any published data curves based on actual random use testing published for either your product nor the ****** CSV

    As far as a CSV damaging the pump I think that would be highly unlikely as restricting output actually causes the pump to draw less amperage and operate at higher velocity which theoretically should not be a problem although several pump companies did initially refuse to warranty their products should a CSV be installed in the system. As far as I know though, those restrictions have been dropped.
    Last edited by valveman; 01-02-2012 at 05:01 PM. Reason: dirty word
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  7. #37
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    No, a real test would be (and was) a side by side comparison of the product under the exact same conditions. The testing that we did showed that although "pressure" does remain fairly constant with a CSV, under residential conditions (varied draw times and varied draw volumes) a properly sized pressure tank showed about 6% less pump cycles with run times averaging only slightly less than with a CSV installed. These draws ranged from 10 seconds to as long as 15 minutes. In both cases a long draw from a high volume source ( in our case a direct 5/8 line off the pressure tank ) caused the pump to run throughout the duration of the draw with no cycling of either system.
    There is no set test that can be done. Everybody uses water differently. Your test had draws from 10 seconds to 15 minutes, and showed the large tank system cycled the pump only 6% less than with a CSV and small tank. A tank manufacturers test had draws of less than 7 minutes, and showed the CSV system had slightly fewer pump cycles than without one.

    I have done test on homes with heat pumps, irrigations systems including drip and spray, pool and pond fills, horse stables, hog farms, etc.etc.. These tests show the CSV system to be far superior in number of cycles, equipment life, pressure delivery, costs, and many other things.

    You are right that a house with two old people, one and a half bath, and no additional water uses benefits less from a CSV. But I know if you let these customers try both type systems for a week, they would say it is well worth 6% more cycles to have the luxury of constant pressure in the house. Showers are much better and the washing machine fills faster. Saving a little money and space with the small tank and CSV is just icing on the cake. 6% more cycling on a system that doesn’t cycle much anyway, is not a good excuse to deny someone constant pressure.

  8. #38
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    I have never seen any published data curves based on actual random use testing published for either your product nor the ****** CSV
    I know of at least four major pump manufacturers that have tested the CSV extensively. I found out years later from retired employees of these companies that the test data was destroyed, because it showed “the CSV made pumps last longer and worked with smaller tanks”. This infuriated me and is the main reason I am so determined about this product. I could pay for some University to do a test like all the other manufacturers do. But then you get anything you pay for, which doesn’t make a good test.

  9. #39
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    As far as a CSV damaging the pump I think that would be highly unlikely as restricting output actually causes the pump to draw less amperage and operate at higher velocity which theoretically should not be a problem although several pump companies did initially refuse to warranty their products should a CSV be installed in the system. As far as I know though, those restrictions have been dropped.
    You would be surprised at how many pump engineers don’t understand that restricting a pump makes its work easier.

    Most of the pump and motor companies will try their best to keep you from using a CSV. Some will even say they deny warranty, but they won’t put it in writing for you, just ask. This should give you a clue as to the credibility of the pump/motor company you are dealing with, and also be the reason you should look into how a CSV really works.
    Last edited by valveman; 01-02-2012 at 05:31 PM.

  10. #40
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    I have done test on homes with heat pumps, irrigations systems including drip and spray, pool and pond fills, horse stables, hog farms, etc.etc.. These tests show the CSV system to be far superior in number of cycles, equipment life, pressure delivery, costs, and many other things.

    Those applications are indeed where a CSV shines and again, when I lived in Florida I installed them on pretty much every irrigation and sprinkler system that we installed.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  11. #41
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    FWIW, the CSV is in a class of several new and very old systems. Heres one: http://www.flomatic.com/index.asp?lg=1&w=pages&pid=223

    And Jaquizzi had their own system on the market for many years, I do not think it still is marketed.

  12. #42
    Well Drilling/Service justwater's Avatar
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    just put in a pump that can meet the needs of any and all watering, install a csv with a 20gal tank and be done with it. all the extra thinking is like a rocking chair, gives you something to do but really gets u nowhere.

    sure that may not be the exact best system to perfectly meet their needs but what am i to do.. move in with these people for a month to find out how they exactly use water?? its the best turn-key system i've found to date... for damn near any application.

  13. #43
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    FWIW, the CSV is in a class of several new and very old systems. Heres one: http://www.flomatic.com/index.asp?lg=1&w=pages&pid=223

    And Jaquizzi had their own system on the market for many years, I do not think it still is marketed.
    Yeah the idea is not new. Not only where several different brands on the market years ago but, many pump installers were making their own by drilling a hole in a pressure reducing valve. It was always the drilled hole that caused the failure. The drilled hole will clog up the same way holes in a showerhead clog up, and the pump would be destroyed.

    The Cycle Stop Valve doesn’t have a drilled hole. It has half moon notches that come together when the valve closes, to form a bypass hole. This way each time the valve opens the hole is split in half, allowing any debris or buildup to flush through. The patented half moon design of the CSV solved the clogging problem and also eliminated water hammer when the valve closes. Solving these problems is what makes the CSV the most reliable pump control available, and gives new life to an old idea.

    Other valves on the market use the drilled hole design and still claim to be just like a Cycle Stop Valve. I know I should be flattered but, the drilled hole design is flawed and the failures of these brand X valves gives the real Cycle Stop Valve a bad reputation.

    Most valve companies do not understand pumps. They didn’t know the minimum flow possible for different types of pumps. They didn’t know the correct pressure settings to make the valves work with different size tanks, and many other things. Copying my minimum flow requirements and installation instructions has made brand X valves function very similar to a CSV, until the hole clogs and destroys the pump.

    The Jacuzzi Aqua Genie 200 was very similar in design to the CSV. Some installers figured out how to work within the narrow parameters where the AG200 functioned well. Some of these are still working 30 years later, as we replace one with a CSV occasionally.

    When Franklin bought out Jacuzzi they were using the AG400. Franklin quickly stopped making the Aqua Genie, as they did not want a pump control that would make a pump last 30+ years. Instead they opted to go with the variable speed type pumps that are more profitable. Variable speed pumps also fall right in line with their “planned obsolescence” guidelines, requiring that pumps last an average of less than seven years. I am sure the variable speed pumps are not even lasting an average of seven years. Isn’t marketing great? It tries to steer you away from the most cost effective solution.

  14. #44
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justwater View Post
    just put in a pump that can meet the needs of any and all watering, install a csv with a 20gal tank and be done with it. all the extra thinking is like a rocking chair, gives you something to do but really gets u nowhere.

    sure that may not be the exact best system to perfectly meet their needs but what am i to do.. move in with these people for a month to find out how they exactly use water?? its the best turn-key system i've found to date... for damn near any application.
    Thanks Justin! The CSV with a 20 gallon tank is a good choice. However, I find very little difference in performance using the 4.4 gallon tank with the CSV.

    Larger tanks also work well with the CSV, you just have to wait until the tank is empty before the pump starts and you start getting constant pressure from the CSV. An 80 gallon tank with a 40/60 switch and the CSV set at 58 PSI gives you 25 gallons of drawdown, constant pressure after that, and a 2 minute fill time. With the non-adjustable valves like the CSV1-60, you just have to adjust the pressure switch to 42/62 to get the same effect.

  15. #45
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    If I were you, I would start designing a smart CSV with good electronics that would get the larger electricity cost down. Without irrigation, a lot of folks dont want to see that meter spin an extra 4 or 10 minutes. For the guy that saved that by changing to compact florescents, he would be pretty unhappy.

    Keeping it simple has great advantages, but unless we get our economy back, 10 bucks a month is starting to register on peoples money meter as important.

    And if, as you say, pumps are designed to last 7 years now, I'm not convinced you can beat them with extended run time. As to the relatively constant pressure, I just use a regulator on the house.

    Frankly, I think we can all agree that pumps generally die because no-one checks them, adjusts them, and tests the tanks and amp draw every year or so. In the regard of the consumer that stays in his recliner all weekend, perhaps the CSV would pay back.

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