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Thread: Pressure tank

  1. #16
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    "Properly sized piping as well as pump and tank sizing will greatly reduce or eliminate that pressure loss feeling but even so with a pressure balanced tub/shower valve you are not going to feel a pressure difference in the shower."

    So now you are using the "pressure balanced tub/shower valve" as the bandaid because you don't have a pump system that delivers constant pressure to start with.

  2. #17
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Re-read my post. I did not say that at all...
    Ah, but therein lies the art of FUD. Leave a negative impression in the first sentence and then CYA in the fine print lest someone calls you on it.

    You still did not answer my question.

  3. #18
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Here's what I can tell you. Here in the northeast most of our wells run between 100 and 400 feet with an 8" steel case. I would say from experience that the average well driller/installer is going to drop a 1/2 / 7 or a 3/4 / 10 down the hole and use an Xtrol 202 regardless of the pump or the demand. Still, I would bet that the average pump lasts a good 15 years and many well over 20. My own pump has been down the hole for 35 years now. Now, maybe a lot of that has to do with cooler water temperatures and larger well case which keeps the pumps cooler but if cycling is a killer than we should all be replacing way more burnt out pumps than we do.

    LLigetfa - Again, re-read my post. Take the time, read carefully......breath, relax
    Here is what I posted. I can't find a question in your post.

    So I have a tank with a 10 gallon draw down before the pressure switch cuts in which means that a couple toilets can flush and quite a few glasses of water will draw before the pump starts. On a longer demand the tank will draw down the 10 gallons and then the pump will run. If the draw is heavy the pump will run continuously until the draw stops and then the tank will recover and the pump will shut off. With a CSV that tank filling will take slightly longer due to the restriction in the CSV so yes, longer run time there. I have exhaustively tested both set ups and in actual "residential" use it turns out that a properly sized expansion tank actually cycles the pump less often than a CSV with a small tank which is how they are usually installed. When I lived in Florida we did a ton of sprinkler systems and in that case a CSV does indeed to an admirable job of preventing cycling because the pump runs constantly when the sprinklers are on. For residential use though I think it's overkill and unnecessary provided the pump and tank are properly sized. But that's just my opinion based on a lot of testing and experience.
    Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 01-01-2012 at 09:55 AM.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  4. #19
    In the Trades Texas Wellman's Avatar
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    FWIW-I'm seeing an average of 12-15 years of service for submersible pumps here, and not unusual at all to see one last for 20+ years. My dads own pump, a 1.5 HP mounted to a way too small under sized galv. 82 gallon tank, lasted for 28 years. It was a Sta-Rite VIP with a cast-iron head.

  5. #20
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Wellman View Post
    FWIW-I'm seeing an average of 12-15 years of service for submersible pumps here, and not unusual at all to see one last for 20+ years. My dads own pump, a 1.5 HP mounted to a way too small under sized galv. 82 gallon tank, lasted for 28 years. It was a Sta-Rite VIP with a cast-iron head.
    So if You have a CSV, It should last for 100 Years ?

    I need one of them. I must be getting old, I do not understand the problem with Old School.


    Have a Great New Year Texas Wellman, and All.
    Last edited by DonL; 01-01-2012 at 10:21 AM. Reason: Op error
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  6. #21
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Please, let's not turn these threads into CSV bashing. A CSV is certainly a viable solution to many problems and should be considered when ever the need arises.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  7. #22
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    I can't find a question in your post..
    That's because I didn't use a "?" for punctuation. What I said was "I would like a few examples of such a draw on a residential system.".

    While the OP was a tad vague as to what the perceived issue is, pump cycling appears to be the concern. There was not enough info WRT pump size and water usage pattern to know how often the pump is cycling.

    So, now you are digressing to the argument that regardless of high cycling, pumps last for decades. Some do, and some don't. I guess the ones that don't are your repeat business. I wonder if you will still be able to say that decades from now for the majority of pumps manufactured today?

  8. #23
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Please, let's not turn these threads into CSV bashing. A CSV is certainly a viable solution to many problems and should be considered when ever the need arises.

    I see the CSV as a good product for a Oversize Pump or a Undersized Tank.


    I Don't think that anyone is bashing it.


    Just a difference in option, Maybe.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  9. #24
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    I see the CSV as a good product for a Oversize Pump or a Undersized Tank.
    No one is going to put up with a pump that doesn't produce enough water for their needs. So all pumps are "Oversized and all tanks are Undersized", which is why the CSV is the answer to so many problems.

  10. #25
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Almost any installer can say his/her pump systems last 15-20 years. The ones you know about do last 15-20 years. Those customers are happy and called you back. Any pump installer will also know how many donít make it through the warranty period, because they have to do those jobs over at no charge. The ones you donít know about barely last past the warranty period. That is because the homeowner wasnít happy about it and called somebody else. Those are the ones that reduce the average life of all pump systems.

    If all pumps lasted 15 years, there wouldnít be about a million pages on the Internet of people trying to solve pump system problems.

    If you want to know the average life of pump/motors, go to a scrape yard that has a pile of motors. Check the date codes and you will see the average life of a submersible motor is still about 7 years. Just like you can buy a bearing made for 20,000 or 100,000 hours, pumps are designed to last a certain number of cycles. Pumps that cycle less, last the longest.

    And it wouldnít surprise me if a pump that lasted 25 years without a CSV would last 100 years if it had a CSV. Because no matter how long they last (1 year or 25), cycling is still most likely the cause of failure.

    I read about the pump for the famous (Friends Show) fountain in Chicago. It is getting close to 100 years old now. That is because it was made of quality materials that still had lead in them, and it does not cycle.

  11. #26
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    What I'm saying or trying to say is that around here, high cycling does not seem to be much of an issue. And yes, I will freely admit that I sell pumps and install pumps and as long as the ones I install outlast the warranty I am pretty happy. Why do we expect things to last a lifetime? You buy a car and most get about 5 years out of it and then trade it in but god forbid their 20 year old fridge craps the bed. We all run out and buy new laptops, tablets and cell phones because we either "need" the latest, greatest or many times the hard drive crashes or the mother board craps out and we grumble a bit but god forbid your 60 year old furnace should decide to die on you. Well pumps run every day, day in and day out and for some reason we think that we deserve to get 40 years or more of service out of a 400 dollar item. Someone should do a life time comparison between a CSV and a normal set and see just exactly how many extra years you supposedly get but it won't be me because I have better things to do over the next 25 years or so.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  12. #27
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Your right! Young people don't even know things are suppose to last. Unfortunately it has become a "throw away society". It will take a reversal of that trend to save the planet. Maybe someday they will at least realize that if their pump, car, and furnace lasted longer, they might be able to afford the newest "I-This or That".

  13. #28
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Not a csv bash, but some guy posted pics of his 1956 antique jet pump and galv tank and non working air control. So thats 50 plus years with tons of cycles. If you have a 8-6 workiing family and kids at school, and no irrigation, sure seems the old system is adequate.

    And some guys know how to tweak the pressure to keep the pump running at irrigation time anyway. But we are headed toward a NON-knowledgeable populace [no more popular mechanics 400 page how to fix it, how to make your metal lathe tools, how to build a radio, how to fix a flat on the highway, ad infinitum...]

    I notice that my workers do not have fricking clue about oil, its types, its need on cars moving parts and hinges, clamps, tools and again hundreds of others. When you meet a guy with a 1 gallon pump up 9$ sprayer, filled with part diesel, gear oil and DELO, you have someone of the sort that made America what it is 100 years ago.

    But thats out of style. Women look for Italian shoes, Calvin Klein odors, and Mercedes as signs of virility. Yet these same men could not start a fire in a blizzard when the Mercedes slid off the road on the way to Aspen. And if his kid was bleeding, he would faint afer his cell phone didnt manage a 911 call. Rome is getting fat and declining.

  14. #29
    Porky Cutter,MGWC Porky's Avatar
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    Some people like Fords and some prefer Chevrolets and then there are those that don't know the difference!
    Have exhaustively tested
    means nothing! Many experts test improperly. A CSV is an excellent and inexpensive addition to any private water system regardless of the pump and tank sizing. It will give the consumer a constant pressure (like when taking a shower) and will extend the live of all components in the system.
    Porky Cutter, MGWC
    (Master Ground Water Consultant)

  15. #30
    In the Trades Texas Wellman's Avatar
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    The old one didn't go bad, he just changed it before it went bad.



    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    So if You have a CSV, It should last for 100 Years ?

    I need one of them. I must be getting old, I do not understand the problem with Old School.


    Have a Great New Year Texas Wellman, and All.

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