4 wire range to 3 wire receptacle

Users who are viewing this thread

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
I understand.

If the wire feeding the Appliance is three conductor and you DO remove the N-G bonding then You would probably smoke anything that uses the 120V, Oven Light, ETC. Plus you would not have any Ground.

The second sentence of this post proves to me that the first sentence is wrong.


The equipment grounding bond in a dryer or range will not cause anything to “smoke”

The equipment grounding of a system is to provide a low impedance path for fault current and plays no role on how a circuit works.

For current to flow there must be a complete circuit from the source back to the source. When a three wire receptacle is used for a range or dryer and the circuit originates in a remote panel, then from that remote panel back to the service all equipment grounding conductors are in parallel with the neutral and are now carrying current. This is why a three wire receptacle for a dryer or range MUST originate in the service disconnection enclosure to prevent this parallel path.

The equipment grounding conductors MUST bond to the neutral in the service enclosure so they are not allowed to be connected together anywhere else. If they do then there are two conductors that share current.
The equipment grounding conductor connects any exposed metal such as the 6/32 by ½ inch screws that hold the plate covers in place to the neutral in the panel in case they become energized there is a low resistance path to operate the overcurrent device.
Should the equipment grounding conductor be reconnect to the neutral downstream from the service equipment then from the point of the second connection back to the service all equipment grounding conductors are at the same potential as the circuit supplying them.

We can read all we want on the internet but without a full understanding of theory it is useless.
 
Last edited:

DonL

Jack of all trades Master of one
Messages
5,205
Reaction score
72
Points
48
Location
Houston, TX
Manufacture must have made a mistake

The equipment grounding conductors MUST bond to the neutral in the service enclosure so they are not allowed to be connected together anywhere else. If they do then there are two conductors that share current.


You need to call the Manufacture and let them know that their design is wrong...
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
You need to call the Manufacture and let them know that their design is wrong...

What makes you think that their design is wrong? In the installation instructions it clearly states the very same thing that is in the NEC. If using a three wire receptacle it must land in the service equipment.

I have wired more dryers and ranges than you have ever looked at and have never seen where the manufacturer stated something wrong.

Where are you getting your information? Could you please post a link to the information where you are finding all this?
 

DonL

Jack of all trades Master of one
Messages
5,205
Reaction score
72
Points
48
Location
Houston, TX
What makes you think that their design is wrong? In the installation instructions it clearly states the very same thing that is in the NEC. If using a three wire receptacle it must land in the service equipment.

I have wired more dryers and ranges than you have ever looked at and have never seen where the manufacturer stated something wrong.

Where are you getting your information? Could you please post a link to the information where you are finding all this?


I am getting my information from the Manufactures Electrical Diagram/Service Manual,
And Yes I know how to read it.

You can put my knowledge down all that you want.


I am stating FACT about the Appliance in question, Not the way it should be, But the way it really is.
 

DonL

Jack of all trades Master of one
Messages
5,205
Reaction score
72
Points
48
Location
Houston, TX
So if there is continuity between the neutral terminal and the chassis ground, then I DO NOT need to add a jumper. Is this correct?

Sorry for the Nonsense Jacob.

You can call Maytag if you need to get the correct answer.

That Range uses a lot of 120 V operating Circuits and connecting it to a 3 wire Receptacle The Neutral needs to be Grounded.

I am sure that the Neutral connection Bolt on the Terminal Block Goes Directly to the Frame.

Not having that in place when using a 3 Wire Feed, Would be a BIG safety problem.


If you were installing a new feed today, It would require you to have 4 conductors. But your is existing.

Sorry for all the unneeded confusion.

Have a Great Day, And a Happy New Year.


DonL
 

Speedy Petey

Licensed Electrical Contractor
Messages
1,108
Reaction score
9
Points
38
Location
NY State, USA
Sorry for the Nonsense Jacob.
What nonsense??


You can call Maytag if you need to get the correct answer.
WHY? He is getting the correct info here.


That Range uses a lot of 120 V operating Circuits and connecting it to a 3 wire Receptacle The Neutral needs to be Grounded.
Correct. THis is so that the frame of the unit has a path for fault current. It has NOTHING to do with 120v loads. That comes from the neutral which is always there.


I am sure that the Neutral connection Bolt on the Terminal Block Goes Directly to the Frame.
Then I feel sorry for you. This is NOT AT ALL the case. The neutral termination ONLY connects to the frame by a strap, or wire in the case of most dryers.


Sorry for all the unneeded confusion.
Don, I hate to say it, but you are contributing to this confusion more than anyone. I truly feel you don't have a firm grasp on this concept.
 

BobL43

DIY Senior Member
Messages
1,802
Reaction score
8
Points
38
Location
Long Island, NY
Sorry for the Nonsense Jacob.

You can call Maytag if you need to get the correct answer.

That Range uses a lot of 120 V operating Circuits and connecting it to a 3 wire Receptacle The Neutral needs to be Grounded.

I am sure that the Neutral connection Bolt on the Terminal Block Goes Directly to the Frame.

Not having that in place when using a 3 Wire Feed, Would be a BIG safety problem.


If you were installing a new feed today, It would require you to have 4 conductors. But your is existing.

Sorry for all the unneeded confusion.

Have a Great Day, And a Happy New Year.


DonL
tis the season to be jolly. where is IAN to poke some comments at us anyway?
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
I am getting my information from the Manufactures Electrical Diagram/Service Manual, And Yes I know how to read it.
then learn how to read it all and don’t stop at looking at the pictures

You can put my knowledge down all that you want.
When someone disagrees with you does not mean they are putting your knowledge down. It could be the lack of knowledge and no one can put down something if you don’t have it.


I am stating FACT about the Appliance in question, Not the way it should be, But the way it really is.
I think what you are doing is stating the way it should be in certain cases. Even if the circuit is existing it is required by the manufacturer to originate in the service panel not in a remote panel.
 

BobL43

DIY Senior Member
Messages
1,802
Reaction score
8
Points
38
Location
Long Island, NY
then learn how to read it all and don’t stop at looking at the pictures

When someone disagrees with you does not mean they are putting your knowledge down. It could be the lack of knowledge and no one can put down something if you don’t have it.


OUCH!:eek:
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
Don I want to apologize for this post as after reading it a couple of times I can see where it doesn’t sound so good so let me go into a little more detail which I sometimes don’t do. Sometimes when I am in a hurry I state things in a short sentence and what I am trying to say just don’t come out right.
https://terrylove.com/forums/showth...ire-receptacle&p=326179&viewfull=1#post326179

In every manufacturer’s installation guide published it will always say to make the installation according to any and all local codes. This will include the NEC if it is adopted in your area.
Here is the section of the NEC which addresses the three wire receptacle for ranges and dryers;

250.142 Use of Grounded Circuit Conductor for Grounding Equipment.
(A) Supply-Side Equipment. A grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted to ground non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment, raceways, and other enclosures at any of the following locations:
(1) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the ac service-disconnecting means
(2) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the main disconnecting means for separate buildings as provided in 250.32(B)
(3) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the main disconnecting means or overcurrent devices of a separately derived system where permitted by 250.30(A)(1)
(B) Load-Side Equipment. Except as permitted in 250.30(A)(1) and 250.32(B) Exception, a grounded circuit conductor shall not be used for grounding non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment on the load side of the service disconnecting means or on the load side of a separately derived system disconnecting means or the overcurrent devices for a separately derived system not having a main disconnecting means.

Exception No. 1: The frames of ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, and clothes dryers under the conditions permitted for existing installations by 250.140 shall be permitted to be connected to the grounded circuit conductor.


250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers.
Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor in the manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.
Exception: For existing branch-circuit installations only where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be connected to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following conditions are met.
(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire; or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected system.
(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the service equipment.
(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of the equipment are bonded to the equipment.


This is was what I was aiming for when I made the remark to read the entire manual instead of just looking at the pictures. Most people do what they see in the manual and ignore the reference to make the installation according to any local codes simply because they don’t know the local codes so all they have to go on is the pictures in the manual.
This is what led to the comment about the lack of knowledge.

I promise that it wasn’t meant to be rude or insulting although after going back and reading the post again I can see where it could be taken that way.

The NEC is a minimum safety standard. To do anything less will result in a system that is unsafe no matter if any of us agree or not. The NEC has been around for over a 100 years and is tweaked every three years. The NEC is an ongoing process to ensure the safety of the user of electricity.

Then there is the theory behind electron flow. Knowing and understanding this theory will make understanding why some of the rules are mandated in the NEC a lot easier to comprehend. The old statement of if it works it must be right does not fly when it comes to electrical energy. This cannot be stressed enough for the average Do-It-Yourselfer.

Yes by exception a dryer or range can be installed with a three wire receptacle but there are restrictions when doing so. I would never install a three wire cord to either of these appliances for any reason. If the homeowner could not afford to have the proper circuit installed then I have a hard time understanding how they can afford to buy a new appliance. It is simply because they don’t recognize the danger of a three wire circuit.
Then we have a handful of folks that think installing a wire to the water pipe fixes all this. This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. Doing this puts any fault current on the water pipes and if they are not complete all the way back to the service all we did was hurt the plumber.
 

DonL

Jack of all trades Master of one
Messages
5,205
Reaction score
72
Points
48
Location
Houston, TX
Don I want to apologize for this post as after reading it a couple of times I can see where it doesn’t sound so good so let me go into a little more detail which I sometimes don’t do. Sometimes when I am in a hurry I state things in a short sentence and what I am trying to say just don’t come out right.
https://terrylove.com/forums/showth...ire-receptacle&p=326179&viewfull=1#post326179

In every manufacturer’s installation guide published it will always say to make the installation according to any and all local codes. This will include the NEC if it is adopted in your area.
Here is the section of the NEC which addresses the three wire receptacle for ranges and dryers;

250.142 Use of Grounded Circuit Conductor for Grounding Equipment.
(A) Supply-Side Equipment. A grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted to ground non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment, raceways, and other enclosures at any of the following locations:
(1) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the ac service-disconnecting means
(2) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the main disconnecting means for separate buildings as provided in 250.32(B)
(3) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the main disconnecting means or overcurrent devices of a separately derived system where permitted by 250.30(A)(1)
(B) Load-Side Equipment. Except as permitted in 250.30(A)(1) and 250.32(B) Exception, a grounded circuit conductor shall not be used for grounding non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment on the load side of the service disconnecting means or on the load side of a separately derived system disconnecting means or the overcurrent devices for a separately derived system not having a main disconnecting means.

Exception No. 1: The frames of ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, and clothes dryers under the conditions permitted for existing installations by 250.140 shall be permitted to be connected to the grounded circuit conductor.


250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers.
Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor in the manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.
Exception: For existing branch-circuit installations only where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be connected to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following conditions are met.
(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire; or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected system.
(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the service equipment.
(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of the equipment are bonded to the equipment.


This is was what I was aiming for when I made the remark to read the entire manual instead of just looking at the pictures. Most people do what they see in the manual and ignore the reference to make the installation according to any local codes simply because they don’t know the local codes so all they have to go on is the pictures in the manual.
This is what led to the comment about the lack of knowledge.

I promise that it wasn’t meant to be rude or insulting although after going back and reading the post again I can see where it could be taken that way.

The NEC is a minimum safety standard. To do anything less will result in a system that is unsafe no matter if any of us agree or not. The NEC has been around for over a 100 years and is tweaked every three years. The NEC is an ongoing process to ensure the safety of the user of electricity.

Then there is the theory behind electron flow. Knowing and understanding this theory will make understanding why some of the rules are mandated in the NEC a lot easier to comprehend. The old statement of if it works it must be right does not fly when it comes to electrical energy. This cannot be stressed enough for the average Do-It-Yourselfer.

Yes by exception a dryer or range can be installed with a three wire receptacle but there are restrictions when doing so. I would never install a three wire cord to either of these appliances for any reason. If the homeowner could not afford to have the proper circuit installed then I have a hard time understanding how they can afford to buy a new appliance. It is simply because they don’t recognize the danger of a three wire circuit.
Then we have a handful of folks that think installing a wire to the water pipe fixes all this. This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. Doing this puts any fault current on the water pipes and if they are not complete all the way back to the service all we did was hurt the plumber.


No Harm Done Mike.

I have thick skin, Got that from all the RF burns over the years.

Sometimes there is more than 1 Cowboy at the Rodeo.


You and Your Family have a Great New Year.


You are still the best. (well second, Your wife comes first, She put up with you everyday)


73


DonL
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks