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Thread: 4 wire range to 3 wire receptacle

  1. #16
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Chad,

    When You need to Modify OLD equipment to meet New code, You are just wasting your time, and money.

    It becomes no safer, Works NO better.

    I see it as a waste of copper...


    If all homes were inspected and installed to code, You would Never Buy or Sell a house.


    Code is a good place to start. But may Not always be the safest way to go.
    There is no modification needed on dryers and ranges. It is written in the instruction sheet how to connect the different cords.
    This has been a code mandate way back is not new.

  2. #17
    DIY Junior Member Jacob Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    That Range has three connections and the Neutral should already be connected to ground.

    You can verify that with your ohm meter.

    So if there is continuity between the neutral terminal and the chassis ground, then I DO NOT need to add a jumper. Is this correct?

  3. #18
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Robinson View Post
    So if there is continuity between the neutral terminal and the chassis ground, then I DO NOT need to add a jumper. Is this correct?
    That is correct. It should be built into the Terminal Block.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  4. #19
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    I cannot remember the last time I saw a new range without an obvious removable N-G bonding jumper. In fact I can't remember ever seeing one without.

    Removing that jumper is certainly NOT a "modification". A 4-wire cord has always been required for mobile homes, and they've been around a LONG time.

  5. #20
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    I cannot remember the last time I saw a new range without an obvious removable N-G bonding jumper. In fact I can't remember ever seeing one without.

    Removing that jumper is certainly NOT a "modification". A 4-wire cord has always been required for mobile homes, and they've been around a LONG time.
    I understand.

    If the wire feeding the Appliance is three conductor and you DO remove the N-G bonding then You would probably smoke anything that uses the 120V, Oven Light, ETC. Plus you would not have any Ground.

    Why would you want to remove the Jumper ???

    That Range is made to operate Using 3 current carrying Wires. The neutral needs to stay connected.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  6. #21
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    I understand.

    If the wire feeding the Appliance is three conductor and you DO remove the N-G bonding then You would probably smoke anything that uses the 120V, Oven Light, ETC. Plus you would not have any Ground.
    The second sentence of this post proves to me that the first sentence is wrong.


    The equipment grounding bond in a dryer or range will not cause anything to “smoke”

    The equipment grounding of a system is to provide a low impedance path for fault current and plays no role on how a circuit works.

    For current to flow there must be a complete circuit from the source back to the source. When a three wire receptacle is used for a range or dryer and the circuit originates in a remote panel, then from that remote panel back to the service all equipment grounding conductors are in parallel with the neutral and are now carrying current. This is why a three wire receptacle for a dryer or range MUST originate in the service disconnection enclosure to prevent this parallel path.

    The equipment grounding conductors MUST bond to the neutral in the service enclosure so they are not allowed to be connected together anywhere else. If they do then there are two conductors that share current.
    The equipment grounding conductor connects any exposed metal such as the 6/32 by Ĺ inch screws that hold the plate covers in place to the neutral in the panel in case they become energized there is a low resistance path to operate the overcurrent device.
    Should the equipment grounding conductor be reconnect to the neutral downstream from the service equipment then from the point of the second connection back to the service all equipment grounding conductors are at the same potential as the circuit supplying them.

    We can read all we want on the internet but without a full understanding of theory it is useless.
    Last edited by jwelectric; 12-29-2011 at 07:02 AM. Reason: to correct spelling

  7. #22
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Default Manufacture must have made a mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    The equipment grounding conductors MUST bond to the neutral in the service enclosure so they are not allowed to be connected together anywhere else. If they do then there are two conductors that share current.

    You need to call the Manufacture and let them know that their design is wrong...
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  8. #23
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    You need to call the Manufacture and let them know that their design is wrong...
    What makes you think that their design is wrong? In the installation instructions it clearly states the very same thing that is in the NEC. If using a three wire receptacle it must land in the service equipment.

    I have wired more dryers and ranges than you have ever looked at and have never seen where the manufacturer stated something wrong.

    Where are you getting your information? Could you please post a link to the information where you are finding all this?

  9. #24
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    What makes you think that their design is wrong? In the installation instructions it clearly states the very same thing that is in the NEC. If using a three wire receptacle it must land in the service equipment.

    I have wired more dryers and ranges than you have ever looked at and have never seen where the manufacturer stated something wrong.

    Where are you getting your information? Could you please post a link to the information where you are finding all this?

    I am getting my information from the Manufactures Electrical Diagram/Service Manual,
    And Yes I know how to read it.

    You can put my knowledge down all that you want.


    I am stating FACT about the Appliance in question, Not the way it should be, But the way it really is.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  10. #25
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Robinson View Post
    So if there is continuity between the neutral terminal and the chassis ground, then I DO NOT need to add a jumper. Is this correct?
    Sorry for the Nonsense Jacob.

    You can call Maytag if you need to get the correct answer.

    That Range uses a lot of 120 V operating Circuits and connecting it to a 3 wire Receptacle The Neutral needs to be Grounded.

    I am sure that the Neutral connection Bolt on the Terminal Block Goes Directly to the Frame.

    Not having that in place when using a 3 Wire Feed, Would be a BIG safety problem.


    If you were installing a new feed today, It would require you to have 4 conductors. But your is existing.

    Sorry for all the unneeded confusion.

    Have a Great Day, And a Happy New Year.


    DonL
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  11. #26
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Sorry for the Nonsense Jacob.
    What nonsense??


    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    You can call Maytag if you need to get the correct answer.
    WHY? He is getting the correct info here.


    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    That Range uses a lot of 120 V operating Circuits and connecting it to a 3 wire Receptacle The Neutral needs to be Grounded.
    Correct. THis is so that the frame of the unit has a path for fault current. It has NOTHING to do with 120v loads. That comes from the neutral which is always there.


    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    I am sure that the Neutral connection Bolt on the Terminal Block Goes Directly to the Frame.
    Then I feel sorry for you. This is NOT AT ALL the case. The neutral termination ONLY connects to the frame by a strap, or wire in the case of most dryers.


    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Sorry for all the unneeded confusion.
    Don, I hate to say it, but you are contributing to this confusion more than anyone. I truly feel you don't have a firm grasp on this concept.

  12. #27
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Sorry for the Nonsense Jacob.

    You can call Maytag if you need to get the correct answer.

    That Range uses a lot of 120 V operating Circuits and connecting it to a 3 wire Receptacle The Neutral needs to be Grounded.

    I am sure that the Neutral connection Bolt on the Terminal Block Goes Directly to the Frame.

    Not having that in place when using a 3 Wire Feed, Would be a BIG safety problem.


    If you were installing a new feed today, It would require you to have 4 conductors. But your is existing.

    Sorry for all the unneeded confusion.

    Have a Great Day, And a Happy New Year.


    DonL
    tis the season to be jolly. where is IAN to poke some comments at us anyway?
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  13. #28
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    I am getting my information from the Manufactures Electrical Diagram/Service Manual, And Yes I know how to read it.
    then learn how to read it all and don’t stop at looking at the pictures

    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    You can put my knowledge down all that you want.
    When someone disagrees with you does not mean they are putting your knowledge down. It could be the lack of knowledge and no one can put down something if you don’t have it.


    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    I am stating FACT about the Appliance in question, Not the way it should be, But the way it really is.
    I think what you are doing is stating the way it should be in certain cases. Even if the circuit is existing it is required by the manufacturer to originate in the service panel not in a remote panel.

  14. #29
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    then learn how to read it all and donít stop at looking at the pictures

    When someone disagrees with you does not mean they are putting your knowledge down. It could be the lack of knowledge and no one can put down something if you donít have it.

    OUCH!
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  15. #30
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    OUCH!
    After going back and reading that again it did sound bad didn't it. I promise I didn't mean it that way

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