OK to connect nonmetallic 10/2 whip to breaker box?

Someone removed a flush mount panel and reinstalled one surface mounted. There are exposed nonmetallic cables entering a hole above the panel that must be fished down the wall. This is enough to tell me someone has added circuits. If they did not have enough pride in their work to do any better job than they did with the panel then those new circuits must be one cluster ****.

Click to expand...

That actually seems to be a Junction box, the cover is screwed on. It does not appear to be a breaker box, at least not what we see.

Whats more interesting is that cluster of wires coming out of a hammer hole in the sheetrock.

Whats amazing is that this type of stuff is ALL OVER America, and usually it just keeps on working.

ballvalve said:

That actually seems to be a Junction box, the cover is screwed on. It does not appear to be a breaker box, at least not what we see.

Whats more interesting is that cluster of wires coming out of a hammer hole in the sheetrock.

Whats amazing is that this type of stuff is ALL OVER America, and usually it just keeps on working.

Click to expand...

Isn't that the same box he just wired his electric heater into? I would think this is the service panel with that bare #6 coming out the top, what do you think after a closer look?

jwelectric said:

Isn't that the same box he just wired his electric heater into? I would think this is the service panel with that bare #6 coming out the top, what do you think after a closer look?

Click to expand...

It looks like that panel was replaced, must be a older house.

Some of that wire looks like RF cable.

It is hard to tell if that wire coming out of the top is insulated or not. It may be a ground going to the heater.


The heater install looks a lot better than the rest.

The house was built in 1965. To clarify, the loose cables running vertically on the wall are phone cables and there is some coaxial that is not in use.

Pickngrin said:

The house was built in 1965. To clarify, the loose cables running vertically on the wall are phone cables and there is some coaxial that is not in use.

Click to expand...

Your install looks good to me, Even if code inspectors may not like it.


How does your new heater work ?

Thanks. Well, I just installed it a few days ago, and turned it on for a bit to test it. It seems to warm up nicely (the reviews for this unit are overwhelmingly positive), but I need to check it out systematically with a thermometer to see how long it takes to drop the temp X degrees.

BTW, the NM cable coming out near the top goes on the upper portion of the wall and leads into the house (connected to the garage).

Like I have said all I have to go on is the picture.



There are several things which I question but most of all is the workmanship of the panel. It does not look professional and in my personal opinion would not have passed an electrical inspection based on those items I have pointed out.

310.15(B)(3) Adjustment Factors. (a) More Than Three Current-Carrying Conductors in a Raceway or Cable. Where the number of current-carrying conductors in a raceway or cable exceeds three, or where single conductors or multiconductor cables are installed without maintaining spacing for a continuous length longer than 600 mm (24 in.) and are not installed in raceways, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be reduced as shown in Table 310.15(B)(3)(a). Each current-carrying conductor of a paralleled set of conductors shall be counted as a current-carrying conductor.



334.24 Bending Radius.
Bends in Types NM, NMC, and NMS cable shall be so made that the cable will not be damaged. The radius of the curve of the inner edge of any bend during or after installation shall not be less than five times the diameter of the cable.

334.15 Exposed Work.
In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C).
(A) To Follow Surface. Cable shall closely follow the surface of the building finish or of running boards.
(B) Protection from Physical Damage. Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, Type RTRC marked with the suffix -XW, or other approved means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, Type RTRC marked with the suffix -XW, or other approved means extending at least 150 mm (6 in.) above the floor.

110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work.
Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.
(A) Unused Openings. Unused openings, other than those intended for the operation of equipment, those intended for mounting purposes, or those permitted as part of the design for listed equipment, shall be closed to afford protection substantially equivalent to the wall of the equipment. Where metallic plugs or plates are used with nonmetallic enclosures, they shall be recessed at least 6 mm (¼ in.) from the outer surface of the enclosure.

Thank you for the time and effort you took to follow up on this. Funny you mention the openknockout, I just noticed that when I was installing the heater and was surprised about it. The only replacements I had were 3/4", not 1/2". The line entering the panel (where you note low voltage would not enter panel) is bare copper grounding.

jwelectric said:

Like I have said all I have to go on is the picture.

There are several things which I question but most of all is the workmanship of the panel. It does not look professional and in my personal opinion would not have passed an electrical inspection based on those items I have pointed out.

310.15(B)(3) Adjustment Factors. (a) More Than Three Current-Carrying Conductors in a Raceway or Cable. Where the number of current-carrying conductors in a raceway or cable exceeds three, or where single conductors or multiconductor cables are installed without maintaining spacing for a continuous length longer than 600 mm (24 in.) and are not installed in raceways, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be reduced as shown in Table 310.15(B)(3)(a). Each current-carrying conductor of a paralleled set of conductors shall be counted as a current-carrying conductor.



334.24 Bending Radius.
Bends in Types NM, NMC, and NMS cable shall be so made that the cable will not be damaged. The radius of the curve of the inner edge of any bend during or after installation shall not be less than five times the diameter of the cable.

334.15 Exposed Work.
In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C).
(A) To Follow Surface. Cable shall closely follow the surface of the building finish or of running boards.
(B) Protection from Physical Damage. Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, Type RTRC marked with the suffix -XW, or other approved means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, Type RTRC marked with the suffix -XW, or other approved means extending at least 150 mm (6 in.) above the floor.

110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work.
Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.
(A) Unused Openings. Unused openings, other than those intended for the operation of equipment, those intended for mounting purposes, or those permitted as part of the design for listed equipment, shall be closed to afford protection substantially equivalent to the wall of the equipment. Where metallic plugs or plates are used with nonmetallic enclosures, they shall be recessed at least 6 mm (¼ in.) from the outer surface of the enclosure.

Click to expand...

What would be the Cost to correct all of these issues that you have pointed out ?

I am going to call the inspector that we had hired and inform him of the situation. I do not expect him to offer anything, but am going to press this issue and if needed can mention my recourse of reporting him as was suggested. I'm also going to inform the realtor we used.

I didnt see the answer to what sort of panel or box that is? with the large flat area exposed, looks like a J box.

ballvalve said:

I didnt see the answer to what sort of panel or box that is? with the large flat area exposed, looks like a J box.

Click to expand...

That is the top of the service panel cover.

Pickngrin said:

I am going to call the inspector that we had hired and inform him of the situation. I do not expect him to offer anything, but am going to press this issue and if needed can mention my recourse of reporting him as was suggested. I'm also going to inform the realtor we used.

Click to expand...

Don't be surprised if you get your power turned off, Until the issues are corrected.

DonL said:

Don't be surprised if you get your power turned off, Until the issues are corrected.

Click to expand...

A private home inspector has no authority to do anything. The municipal inspector, he can shut your lights off.

cacher_chick said:

A private home inspector has no authority to do anything. The municipal inspector, he can shut your lights off.

Click to expand...

True, for the most part.

Other than report it to a higher authority, After You Pis* him Off. Then get a real Inspector to Inspect The Whole House.

Get your Home Owners insurance Increased or Canceled.

I would leave well enough alone. Unless I had the money to fix everything.

All the Inspector will do is give the money back that he charged. If the house needs Inspected again then the bank and Insurance can get involved.

I have a licensed electrician coming over in a couple of days to take a look at this. I know that I need to remedy the situation. I'm afraid of what the estimate is going to be. I will post the feedback that I get from him. I am also going to find out what kind of recourse I have with regard to the home inspector that I used. This is all leaving such a bad taste in my mouth.

Pickngrin said:

I have a licensed electrician coming over in a couple of days to take a look at this. I know that I need to remedy the situation. I'm afraid of what the estimate is going to be. I will post the feedback that I get from him. I am also going to find out what kind of recourse I have with regard to the home inspector that I used. This is all leaving such a bad taste in my mouth.

Click to expand...

Home inspectors are almost about worthless. I say almost because they DO, once in a while, earn their keep... only as a second set of eyes. But I think EVERY house - especially older homes - should be inspected by a licensed electrician.

My mother in law just purchased a new (older) home and had it inspected. The plan all along was to remodel the kitchen with some minor upgrades to the electric (Extra plugs, gfcis) done by us and a new 220 line for the electric range done by the electrician. GOOD THING WE HAD AN ELECTRICIAN ON CALL.

The inspector should be shot.

We found open J-boxes in the attic covered in cellulose. The inspector was in the attic.
We found two ceiling fans hot wired/daisy-chained with extension cord plugged in to a garage outlet(the plug was plugged in and disappeared in the wall).
The central air conditioning was hot wired in to the main (no room on the box I assume).

That was the obvious stuff the inspector SHOULD have seen.

In the walls we found buried j-boxes with chared wiring. A two hot wire (12-3) line circuit to a receptacle with the break-tab in-tact and shared nuetral on the same phase.

Yikes

Ok, I have an update. A licensed electrician came yesterday to check out the situation. He said that there is no problem with the panel or the wiring. He did say that he would "give it a D for neatness" and said that I could build a soffit to protect the NM cable. He spent a fair amount of time looking at it and obviously stood to profit by telling me that there was a problem. He said that there is no maximum bending radius of NM. I probably asked him three more times, "are you sure?"
I will build a soffit to hide and protect the NM. Oh, and I put a knockout cover in and fastened the flex conduit for the heater.
And the heater works well, by the way... kept me comfortable in the garage today.
Thanks again for the feedback.
Happy New Year.

Pickngrin said:

Ok, I have an update. A licensed electrician came yesterday to check out the situation. He said that there is no problem with the panel or the wiring. He did say that he would "give it a D for neatness" and said that I could build a soffit to protect the NM cable. He spent a fair amount of time looking at it and obviously stood to profit by telling me that there was a problem. He said that there is no maximum bending radius of NM. I probably asked him three more times, "are you sure?"
I will build a soffit to hide and protect the NM. Oh, and I put a knockout cover in and fastened the flex conduit for the heater.
And the heater works well, by the way... kept me comfortable in the garage today.
Thanks again for the feedback.
Happy New Year.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the update.


I think that the Inspector will vary from city to city.


Good deal that it is safe. Looks are not everything.


Have a great New Year & enjoy the warmth.

Pickngrin said:

. He said that there is no maximum bending radius of NM. I probably asked him three more times, "are you sure?"
Happy New Year.

Click to expand...

334.24 Bending Radius.

Bends in Types NM, NMC, and NMS cable shall be so made that the cable will not be damaged. The radius of the curve of the inner edge of any bend during or after installation shall not be less than five times the diameter of the cable.

Oops, he was wrong.


And I pray that you year is blessed also.