Water level drop

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JohnfrWhipple

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....It appears that your pan is filled almost to the top of the curb . What we are seeing in your photo is just normal ......

Roberto what pictures are you looking at?

The flood test was filled maybe an inch or so of water.

The test plug is wrong.

Failed flood test.

Time to check the quality of the Kerdi set to the wall (to bad there was no job site shear test method one could use).

If the Kerdi is well adhered I'd be busting out the Ardex 8+9!!!

Now if this Kerdi shower was build my style (like they do in Germany) it would have never leaked to begin with.... And instead of waiting till Tuesday for help this fellow would have been eating eggs and tiling all weekend...

Leaking Shower viewed with Heat Gun
 
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Eurob

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Roberto what pictures are you looking at?

The flood test was filled maybe an inch or so of water.

The test plug is wrong.

Failed flood test.

Time to check the quality of the Kerdi set to the wall (to bad there was no job site shear test method one could use).

If the Kerdi is well adhered I'd be busting out the Ardex 8+9!!!

Now if this Kerdi shower was build my style (like they do in Germany) it would have never leaked to begin with.... And instead of waiting till Tuesday for help this fellow would have been eating eggs and tiling all weekend...


JC said:
'' I filled a bucket with the same depth of water and it has dropped about a 1/16. My question is, is it normal for kerdi to wick water up on the outside. The water seems to be wicking up a 1/4 inch, then across the top of the curb and then dripping down the opposite side on to the floor.

IMG_2324.jpghttps://www.dropbox.com/s/kn979rn4jmv0kcl/IMG_2324.JPG ''

The water is also wicking up the walls on the outside. It's wet to the touch.
IMG_2327.jpghttps://www.dropbox.com/s/6rciv0hb93w6mk4/IMG_2327.JPG

The other side of the walls are open and I don't see any water at all.


John , Did you monitor -- every hour or so for the length of your 72 h flood test -- the wicking of the water over the Kerdi membrane -- in a recommended installation -- on vertical surfaces ?

If you look at the highlighted picture link you can see the water line an inch or so above the Kerdi band , which is about 2'' or so over the shower pan .

The mention of the wicking only 1/4 inch on the vertical wall and then on top of the curb -- in the red highlighted quote from OP -- tells us that the water level of the flood test is only 1/4 inch below the top of the curb .



That's all we've got to form an opinion , but no definitive certainty . Without any follow up , few opinions are correct -- hopefully it ill not be the last entry of the OP concerns before vault lock down -- .:)
 
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JohnfrWhipple

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Roberto you are not looking at the third picture. The one where the poster used a pencil line to mark the water level.

Those Kerdi curbs are huge - almost five to six inches I think. No way water wicked up that high. If the water was wicking it would have hydrated the thin-set on the curb top.

That Kerdi shower is leaking....

That is a failed flood test.


I'm sure right now a team from Schluter is flying down to check things out. Like Jim says with millions of successful showers this failed flood test most really be on their high priority list. Easter weekend or not.

I hope the fellow knows the name and address of the tile installer. Name and address of the framer. Type of the thin-set - it better be non-modified.... Nothing the Schluter remote diagnostic team won't address. Is this not the third leaking Kerdi Shower flood test we have seen here in the last eight months? Or is it just two?

This is why you flood test showers. The simple step is all you have to check your work.

Sucks that Schluter's tech team is not available for phone calls on the weekends. Now this fellow has lost his long weekend to tile.....
 

Eurob

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Roberto you are not looking at the third picture. The one where the poster used a pencil line to mark the water level.

Those Kerdi curbs are huge - almost five to six inches I think. No way water wicked up that high. If the water was wicking it would have hydrated the thin-set on the curb top.

That Kerdi shower is leaking....

That is a failed flood test.


Besides seeing the water level marked at filling point -- IMG_2323.jpg -- and the kerdi wet , there is not much to do with it . The '' minimum'' -- almost none existant -- level drop shown after 36 hours is definitely due to the wicking water on the Kerdi fleece .

You can also see how high the water wicked on the other 2 photos -- on the Kerdi and on the thin-set -- .

I would say that shower did not fail the flood test , but the wicking is the problem . I would also not assume that the curb was built with a Schluter product unless the OP say so .
 

Jadnashua

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I know here in Vancouver this practice (shown above) is not allowed.
And, while Ardex may bless it, using it on a Kerdi shower like John promoted for years before he deleted all of his posts here, does not meet Schluter's instructions for where he lives. Most codes require the installation to follow the manufacturer's instructions, and you may be able to get an approval to deviate, that is not always the best way to deal with it.
 

Jadnashua

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IF your local inspector will allow you to deviate from the manufacturer's instructions that have the actual code approval process, then you're okay. But, most places have a provision that says something like "installed per the manufacturer's instructions". And, in North America, the instructions say unmodified thinset for Kerdi shower installs. Now, will Schluter give you permission on a job-by-job basis to use something else? Possibly, like they'll let you use a rapid set modified to set something like a glass tile if the tile manufacturer insists. But, you have to ask on a job-by-job basis, and there is no generic approval. So, while Ardex may warrant the install, code says "installed per the manufacturer's instructions", and the bits you're installing are Schluter's, not Ardex's.
 

Jadnashua

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The instructions come from Ardex Jim.

That and the fact that Schluter informed me that Ardex 8+9 is the equivalent of Kerdi Coll.

So really I was following instructions from both manufactures...
Since you live in North America, and the testing and certifications were done using the North American Kerdi installation instructions that apply where you live, no, your method does not meet the manufacturer's instructions of Kerdi, the one that actually has the shower construction certification WHEN INSTALLED PER THEIR INSTRUCTIONS (for where you live).

And, you seem to have a short memory about Kerdi and wicking. This is from over two years ago.

Weep holes and clamping drains are part and parcel to a conventional shower construction, and the gravity and draining on that was what was said. Except during a flood test, a shower NEVER should see pooled, liquid water on the membrane ever again (except possibly in a conventional shower's liner). The tile and grout will wick some, but because there's not a huge, thick, absorbant mudbed beneath, it dries to the surface quickly once you stop showering.

If you take some virgin Kerdi and sprinkle some water on it, it will bead up. Eventually, it will go into the fleece. Your picture does not appear to be of a shower, but some mock up and the Kerdi is not well adhered to the backing material. Initially, the water will bead up similar to a bead of water on a nicely waxed car, eventually, it will wet the surface and then the meniscus will invert. Water will wick a little into a seam, the more thinset you leave there, the further it will wick. If your seams overlap at least the minimum specified, it will not get beyond the seam into the backing material. That is the goal, and if done right will make a perfectly waterproof shower as once the tile is installed, very little water will ever get to the membrane and certainly not enough to pool long enough to do anything. That is the beauty of ANY surface membrane.

Once the fleece does get wetted, it also acts like the pad of a humdifier, and can significantly increase the amount of water lost to evaporation during any extended leak test. The small fibers significantly increase the surface area and lots more water will evaporate from that larger surface area. Just like in an evaporative cooler or a home humidifier.

John Whipple seems to forget what I posted over two years ago about Kerdi wicking. He thinks that he is the only one that knows that. He likes to make anyone else look like a fool, and he is great. If you review this thread, you'll see most of the posts were removed by John because they had misleading information. Posting one's opinion is one thing, but a professional is expected to post the facts. After posting this over two years ago, John called me many things, incompetent, ignorant, and totally out of it. But, you can't see most of that, because he deleted it.
 

Eurob

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You see John what happens when deleting almost all posts from your threads?

Still continuing to argue about the S products? What changed?

All the good info is gone ...... Vault locked....
 

JohnfrWhipple

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That is the only kind of crack I would like to see on a job site.

Now I started this thread to show people that water level's do not drop in a Kerdi Flood Test. The people who have read this in the past know this. Online many "HELPFUL PROS" say things that imply that a drop of 1/8" or 1/16" is normal.

That is so wrong.

I did the math.

I showed flood test after flood test.

I showed proper steps.

Then I deleted them. Just to be safe - you never know if I worded things wrong and what kind of trouble I could get into for that.

Jim Knows all. Jim is the best. Jim has taken THREE Schluter workshops. I wonder what Schluter told Jim at one of his three training classes. If Schluter had an answer Jim would have posted it by now. But he does not. So he will cry that I removed my info.

That of course was MY INFO.

Now if you need help with a failed Kerdi flood test. Why not ask me?

A kerdi flood test does not drop in elevation. One that leaks does.
 

Jadnashua

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This may be useful background information about building a shower with Kerdi or any other waterproofing membrane. It is from the UPC (Universal Plumbing Code) that was written and has been adopted by many areas in the USA. I'd be surprised if the rules in Canada are not similar or nearly identical, if not identical. Now, this is from an older copy of the UPC standard, but it is my understanding it has not changed in this area (2009 version) to the present.

From section P2709 - Shower Receptors

The lining material shall extend not less than 3 inches (76mm) beyond or around the rough jambs and not less than 3 inches (76mm) above the finished thresholds. Sheet-applied load bearing, bonded waterproof membranes shall be applied in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions.
The North American Schluter Shower Handbook states the following (i.e., the version that has the US and Canadian certification and thus the one referenced in the UPC code extracted above):

Seams in the membrane are constructed by overlapping the edges by 2" (50mm) with unmodified thin-set mortar or by abutting adjacent sheets and installing KERDI-BAND with the unmodified thin-set mortar, centered over the joint.
The code approval agencies require the 'system' to be tested by a recognized agency, and in this case it is the ICC. This certification gets redone on an approximately 2-year cycle, and over the many years, the Kerdi shower system has always passed. The current approval is in report ESR-2467 http://www.icc-es.org/Reports/pdf_files/ESR-2467.pdf. Any other installation method does not meet code, does not meet the North American installation instructions.

FWIW, when Schluter deemed it prudent to require unmodified thinsets for use on their uncoupling membranes and sheet membranes, they had first determined that it worked, and that in these particular circumstances, it had significant benefits. Here is what the TCNA says about the use of modified thinsets under these circumstances:

When latex/polymer modified Portland cement mortar is used to install ceramic, glass, and natural stone tiles in an area the may not thoroughly dry out in use (e.g., swimming pools and gang showers, etc.) or where initial drying is inhibited (between tile and impervious substances), it is recommended that the completed installation be allowed to dry out thoroughly before exposure to water. This drying period can range from 14 to more than 60 days depending on the temperature and humidity and other climatic conditions, and whether the installation is interior or exterior. Consult the material manufacturer for minimum set times before grouting tile or allowing traffic, water exposure, or submersion.
Testing by Schluter has shown wet mortar on tile can extend to 90-days when installed over either Kerdi or Ditra. A dry set mortar only needs to cure (it gets stronger during the cure process when it is kept wet and able to attain the theoretically best possible strength), and you can get a reliable, repeatable, known result in a short time. When using a dryset with Schluter's membranes, they want it to be reliable, in all cases, and testing has proven way above the minimum requirements for a successful bond when you follow their instructions and guidelines with good workmanship. When I specifically asked the question about why their European instructions on building a Kerdi shower differ, I was told this: In the USA, when they proposed using a dryset mortar over their membranes, the industry raised a major hell storm. While true that bonding some types of tiles with a dryset over rigid surfaces (cbu, a cement slab, etc.), a modified provides some significant advantages, that isn't always the case when used with a waterproof membrane. But, consider that 'typical' substrates like cbu, a slab, or plywood all allow the modified mortar to dry - IOW, it is not trapped between what may be a nearly impervious tile and a waterproof membrane. Backed up by recognized testing agencies results, it became the North American approved method of installation. Schluter tried to do the same thing in Europe, but while some countries agreed, there was by no means a consensus and trying to get approvals in all of them meant they could not have a common Euro installation method which was and is important to them, and complies with only having to get one approval rather than dozens in their market place. So, they used their backup plan, and thus, the installation instructions differ. But, like the saying 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do', in the USA, it's do as the USA (and Canada) say, and as a result, to get the code approval and the company's backing, you have to follow their installation instructions as written for this market, something that John Whipple refuses to do and one reason why Schluter and he have some disagreements.

A shower built with conventional methods will see the structure reach a relatively high moisture content - a mudbed is porous, but water does take some time to migrate through it. It rarely will ever be totally dry in a shower used regularly. On the other hand, one constructed with one of the approved bonded sheet membranes, the membrane, after the tile is installed will rarely become wet or if it does, remain wet between normal uses. The tile and grout, on the sloped bed, shed the vast majority of it directly to the drain. On a mudbed shower and a membrane one, a very small percentage of moisture does make it through with each use. On a mudbed, it tends to be drawn down into the porous substrate. On a bonded sheet membrane, it tends to evaporate to the surface since it cannot penetrate the membrane immediately below the grout and tile with a thin layer of much less porous thinset verses a mudbed. Close proximity of the fleece between layers of Kerdi inhibits wicking very far into or through the joint, but it will absorb some moisture. That's the reason why the overlap and workmanship is critical on the seams. Submerged while in a flood test (the worst situation, and the only time there will be continuous coverage of water on the membrane) can push that moisture in on average up to about 1/4" depending on workmanship and how long the mortar has had to cure (it's less when fully cured). But, in the process, that moisture is going somewhere. IF there's a bunch of excess thinset on top of the naked (i.e., untiled) membrane, some of that moisture WILL penetrate that mortar, and the mortar without the fleece's small fibers from two sides to break the capillary action, can extend for a fair distance - all of which will remove water from the pan. All water has surface tension, and thus holds a curved edge. That slope of the curve will change depending on the surface and water content of the adjacent material. Thus, it can be misleading measuring the exact height of the water in the pan at the beginning and the end. A conventional, smooth, solid pan liner as used in a conventional mudbed shower is easier to check the exact height.

Bottom line, if you follow the instructions and have anywhere near decent skill, a shower built with Kerdi works, and works well. It has been doing that for many years in North America, and will continue to do it while abiding by all of the building codes and certification tests applied to it.
 

Eurob

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Such a crap , the post above.

I guess the European countries in disagreement with Schluter's promoting the Unmods -- go against all the mortars and porcelain manufacturers recommendations , including the TCNA -- should be the first flag .

The First Green flagis the requirements in which UK Schluter division respect the rest of the manufacturers and organizations , by recommending accordingly .

Have a look of the rest of the manufacturers which comply with the ICC evaluations .

http://www.icc-es-pmg.org/Listing_Directory/

The Second Green flag is that all the rest of the related tile industry manufacturers agree with using the modified mortars.



One more thing -- since e-mails and websites are easily available -- should we be concerned with the pollution of the paper waste , DVD's , miscellaneous items which are not directly related to the Schluter drain ?

Besides having Jim dumping over and over and over the basic literature of Schluter , here is what a linear drain -- S one -- contains


Linear drain kit 005.jpg

Linear drain kit 001.jpg

Linear drain kit 002.jpg

Linear drain kit 003.jpg

Linear drain kit 004.jpg
 
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Eurob

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That's not all ......


Linear drain kit 010.jpg

Linear drain kit 006.jpg

Linear drain kit 007.jpg

Linear drain kit 008.jpg

Linear drain kit 009.jpg


How much more do you need .

Tens of pages of explanations , recommendations , installation instructions -- in 3 languages , in every shipping box -- , DVD's , extra miscellaneous items with all of the phone numbers for customer service , web address , etc ........ when everything is easily available in digital format -- no pollution -- 24h with no interruptions on the net .


And then Jim -- who ?-- is coming along ...repeating.....repeating.....repeating ...again .....and again ......and again ......the same .....and the same .....and the same ......WOW .
 

Jadnashua

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It's obvious that you don't understand what an uncoupling membrane does when it is thrown into the equation, or that with the use of one (a sand bed locked between the foundation walls) has been in use for many centuries many hundreds of years before modified thinsets were ever thought of and developed. The rules on what's needed are different when you use an uncoupling membrane verses bonding directly to a rigid surface like a slab, cbu, plywood, etc.

If one were to believe all of the modified thinset manufacturers, you'd have to believe that all of those old churches with tiled floors that are 4-500 or more years old could never have worked and it's all a mirage. All an uncoupling membrane does is make the use of an uncoupling membrane thinner and much easier to install than what has been (and is still used) for centuries.

If you read the fine print or talk to any modified thinset manufacturer and ask them when you can use your newly tiled structure when using a waterproofing membrane, just like the TCNA says, they'll tell you it takes at least 14 to 60 days to achieve full strength, and the time varies because of many variables. How you are going to use the thing will dictate when you can start. Yes, you can use a rapid set modified, and Schluter will allow that as well, but that adds another layer and level of cost and complexity that is not needed for most installations. Using a dryset where they call for it, results in a build that is both reliable, and can be used to its fullest intent MUCH quicker when a waterproof membrane is involved than with a modified in those same situations.

And, Roberto, what was the point of showing what comes in a Kerdi linear drain kit? BTW, when ordering, you also must purchase the drain cover separately, or you'll be missing a very important part. They do that so that it is easier to stock, since there are at least three different types right now, and likely more to come...getting your desired configuration would mean a huge number of different sets. Same idea with what Delta does with their shower valve kit...except in a big box store where you have limited choice, at a plumbing supply store, you buy the rough-in valve then select your trim and cartridge package.
 

Eurob

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I guess it is time to ....... There is no point in continuing .....1,2,3,4 .....1,2,3,4....1,2,3,4....1,2,3,4.
 

Eurob

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Jim I believe he is highlighting the massive amount of paper waste created by the packaging.... Not sure - but I think he was talking about that. Every supplier I know that sells Schluter's products have piles of the same documents lying around. Tent cards. Product lists. On and on.


John , is not only the massive waste , but the OVERWHELMING -- in all of the '' S '' products -- amounts of installation instructions -- in 3 languages , links to every possible contact ( website , customer service ) , digital and paper instructions of not only the linear drain , but the entire shower , etc......--

How much more do you need ? From the cheap seats it looks like not enough !? LOL


And the Removing Tool for the Grate is also included -- Good catch John --

Schluter Lifting Tool 002.jpg
 
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