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Thread: How much should the water level drop in a Kerdi Shower flood test?

  1. #46
    DIY Junior Member wilkinte's Avatar
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    and didn't see the great tipped coin innovation until I drained it!
    Hail kerdi! or is that Heil kerdi (joking, obv)

  2. #47
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Sorry Folks - I have taken down my post on Schluter's products. Just being careful with my wording.
    Last edited by johnfrwhipple; 04-20-2014 at 07:58 AM.


    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  3. #48
    DIY Junior Member loudgonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnfrwhipple View Post
    It's 2014 and this New Year found yet another Kerdi Shower under flood test for me here in North Vancouver. Another year of shower building. Another year of measuring evaporation and another year with absolutely no drop in water level. If your builder or tile man tells you that a Kerdi Shower looses water durning a flood test he would be lying, unless of course he means by evaporation and if so this can be measured with a tipped coin technique.

    Here is the latest Kerdi Shower under flood test Hour 48 in the photo.





    I have put together a handy inspection check list. Make sure you visit this discussion for more safety checks on your next Kerdi Shower Build.





    Kerdi Shower Inspection Check List
    John, thanks for your insight and 'right approach' when it comes to kerdi. We will be starting our shower build soon and we are using the kerdi kit, including the tray and curb. Are you using the 8+9 instead of thinset for the seams and would this also glue the floor membrane to the pre fabricated styrofoam floor?

    thanks
    leo

  4. #49
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Default Using Ardex 8+9 with Kerdi Shower Tray

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    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  5. #50
    DIY Junior Member loudgonzo's Avatar
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    Ok, I will use some piece of extra curb and rig up something up.

    To understand your process, you are applying the 8+9 on the seams and edges only? If that's the case, then I take it you do not overlap the kerdi, and use the kerdi band to cover the seam with 8+9, as well as the edges and corners? And if that it correct, then how much time do you give after setting kerdi up to do the band, edges and corners, does the thinset have to be completely dry?

    We are in no hurry to do this job, and have no problem with waiting the appropriate time for material to set in, dry and cure.

    leo

  6. #51
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Default Q: Did any water drop in my last Kerdi Flood test? A: No

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    Last edited by johnfrwhipple; 03-15-2014 at 10:55 AM.


    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  7. #52
    DIY Junior Member loudgonzo's Avatar
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    We have not started to shop for tile or faucets yet. I'm not sure what you mean by sample board with grout before laying out plumbing fixtures, do you mean to tile and grout a few pieces to some scrap board? The purpose of this would be to get a feel for the actual process?

    I miss your second approach, are you saying to overlap the pieces of kerdi 2", and then also use the kerdi band over the seam? Wouldn't this bulge out along the seam? And is it 3 days for the kerdi thinset to cure before adding band with 89?

    leo

  8. #53
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Default European Kerdi Installs - Water is Water

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    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  9. #54
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnfrwhipple View Post
    The beauty of using Ardex 8+9 is the bulge is almost nothing. Even with the Kerdi Band as insurance.
    Or, just do it the way Schluter of North America instructs, and hundreds of thousands of successful showers have been built. It seems a bit strange that adding Ardex 8+9 over an already properly installed Kerdi seam would be thinner. Done like a drywall seam, and spreading extra further away may make it LOOK smoother, but it's now just a bigger hump.

    Schluter has been selling and people installing Kerdi showers in North America for nearly several decades now...when you follow the instructions, they work, they do not leak. As with many things, you do need at least some understanding of what you are doing, and reasonable workmanship, but a little practice goes a long ways. And, if it's important to you, you don't need to wait those extra days OR spend the extra money for the extra material. Does it work, yes, is it necessary, only you can decide, but the manufacturer doesn't seem to think so, and will offer you a warranty done to their instructions.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  10. #55
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Default Nicht Geändert dünnen Satz saugt Bälle. Ardex 8 +9 ist besser.

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    Last edited by johnfrwhipple; 03-15-2014 at 10:56 AM.


    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  11. #56
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    FWIW, a properly built Kerdi seam with unmodified thinset, while it may wick a bit after the first day during a flood test, still does not leak water out of the pan AND, as is true with all cement based products, they continue to cure for many days, with them being specified at 28-days. In the process, the seam gets stronger as the cement grows its crystalline structure and become even more waterproof which will limit wicking and still never leak. This was shown in one thread here where you raised big red flags...in that instance, at least one of the seams wasn't to spec (not enough overlap), but even then, it did not leak any measurable water as the level stayed the same and no water was seen anywhere else in the structure. The same test, done later after things cured a bit and the one seam was redone to Schluter's minimum 2" overlap, then neither leaked nor wicked. How waterproof does a shower have to be? And to Kerdi verses Kerdi DS, unless vapor pressure is an issue (like in a commercial steam shower), how is thicker better, just like how is 1/2" glass more waterproof as a shower door than 1/4"? At least with the Kerdi, it has tile on top of it to protect it. The 1/2" glass is stronger, but it is NOT more waterproof, which is also true of the varieties of Kerdi (vapor pressure isn't a big issue except in a steam shower). They're both pretty tough. If you can't control the use of the space until it is covered with tile...fine, DS may offer a little more protection, but it is NOT more waterproof.

    The worst situation is during the flood test. There is NEVER standing water on those seams ever again once they are tiled if the slope is built properly. As a result, even if it does wick a bit during the flood test, if it doesn't leak out, once things are actually finished and in use, it will not leak. Schluter has a vested interest in showers built with their materials to not have problems....after something like 20-years in the USA and Canada with Kerdi products, and hundreds or thousands of showers built this way, if they did not work, they'd be out of business.

    I do not know the building codes outside of the USA (Canada's are similar but have their differences), but I firmly believe, if the Schluter Kerdi Shower Systems Handbook didn't produce a product that worked, they'd either have changed it or be out of business by now. That things are done in a different manner elsewhere is of little concern when I've seen it work, and dozens and dozens of other pros I know have had no problems, and hundreds and hundreds of DIY'er people on www.johnbridge.com have done the same with their one-off showers. It would seem that the learning curve to get a reliable result isn't all that hard with a little study and some helpful backup (rather than claims that it won't work). Certainly, a DIY'er will make some mistakes, but there's enough overlap with a seam where it still doesn't actually leak out. More just for the sake of more is wasteful.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  12. #57
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Default Four failed attempts at a Kerdi Flood Test - Lucky number Five !!!

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    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  13. #58
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Default Does Kerdi Fix really set up under water?

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    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  14. #59
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Both thinset, grout, and tile are somewhat porous, but once Kerdi is covered with thinset and tile, how much water pressure is there on it? Considering that probably 99.99% is covered by mortar, and no more than the tile thickness, how much head does the water have pressing down on the membrane? A VERY small fraction of what it had when it was flood tested. It's not like if you had a steady spray on the grouted tile, you could get a stream of water going through...we're talking barely enough to wick down there, if it ever does in between drying and shower users. There's a big difference between having a inch or so of deck mud underneath the tile and a waterproof membrane on top of it. If it did not leak during the flood test, it is NOT going to leak once covered with thinset and tile and, it has all the time it needs to cure. There's intentionally a lot more 'room' for moisture in a conventional pan of deckmud, and needs a drain with weep holes. As a result, there's more water pressure because there's room for moisture and it's 8-10x thicker (thus head, or water pressure). Thinset is MUCH denser, and MUCH thinner...apples and oranges.

    I don't care how much water gets dumped on it and runs down the drain...it's like the saying...water under the bridge. On a wall, any that might get to the membrane flows on its own or, since it can't penetrate the membrane, the drying on top will draw it outwards. On the pan, unless your slope is improper, it flows (slowly) or evaporates, but there's literally no head or pressure - the tile and thinset are shielding it from the spray, and anything that may (and not much will) gets below, still is shielded by the materials above it.

    FWIW, not everyone reads, let alone understands the instructions on how to do things. For that reason, without knowing the specific circumstances, any product, misused can have problems. Your example doesn't mean much.
    Last edited by jadnashua; 01-16-2014 at 11:00 PM.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

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