Water level drop

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Eurob

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johnfrwhipple said:
A shower curb should only be made from cement, bricks, block or of late for me Concrete Board. Wood should not be used. IF it is to be used it should be stable. Dry. Seasoned. KD. Export grade. If this is not available I would use paint grade plywood instead. Wood shrinks. Wood moves. Wood swells when wet. Concrete does not.

Why it shouldn't be in wood -- the curb -- John ? Since you do residential work -- no metal studs involved -- all your blockings , studs , subfloor , etc. is in wood . What changes for the curb ?

Other than -- no penetrations allowed -- through the curb , which is one of the most important advice found on -- John Bridge Forum -- the wood will survive if the building process is respected as per the walls . CBU's over it , membrane and the rest .....

Even your steam showers are build over wood frame ...... don't know where you got the idea of no wood for the curb allowed is not a good one . :)


loudgonzo said:
I will look into getting a solid curb top instead of tiling the top of curb; and then try to set to the minimum height of 2".

Here is an example we did a while ago if you like the look of it . Costly but ...... worth the money .

One slab piece --curb --.jpg

And here is the diagram used for it , design by us.
 
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Dhagin

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I'm with Roberto. :)

Wood as a substructure for a curb, properly installed and water-proofed over a wood framed floor, is a fine installation. And has been for many decades throughout north America.

Wood as a substructure for a curb, installed over a concrete or gypsum floor is not such a good idea. In these cases, a more dimensionally stable non-wood substructure should be used. :)
 

Jadnashua

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Schluter says under these circumstances, it's not unusual for water to wick into a seam up to about the 1/4" you're seeing. The obvious goal is to not let water behind the membrane. Once you've covered the top side with thinset and a tile, that should stop any capillary action on the uncovered side.

For peace of mind, call Schluter's tech support line - real people that know and use the product every day. I think they'll say the same thing.

The surface area/depth of your bucket verses the shower pan are a bit different - lots more surface area on the pan for evaporation to occur, and with the meniscus of the water, differentiating 1/16" could be tough. As long as the water is not going UNDER then Kerdi, sounds okay. I had not seen water wick up the surface. I'd look closely at the curb corners and seams. No puckers or voids, or loose spots in the membrane application. If you had a lot of thinset left on the outside, moisture could wick through that.

Last question, did you let the stuff cure for at least 24-hours before flood testing? The thinset needs to cure at least some. The industry calls thinset totally cured after 28-days, but it attains a lot of its strength in the first several, but it does need that 24-hours at least before flood testing. This is the last time the shower pan will ever see anywhere near that much water pressure on it. Once covered in tile, 99.99% of the water will run off the tile into the drain and what little does get beneath the tile, generally in a membrane shower like this, evaporates rather than accumulating (unlike a conventional mudbed shower where gravity keeps pulling it down to the liner beneath the setting bed).
 

ShowerDude

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Clearly A failed flood test. Game over. I do feel for your loss of time and money. You can patch and band aid it being that its your home and you are only to blame. We all know the best thing to do here is learn from our mistakes and start over if that is an option.

You can always try find a shower expert in your area, and request a site visit consultation in which they walk you thru how to not screw it up next time and offer you support throughout your project usually for a small consultation fee? You still build it, but now youve got a pro backing your every move.????????

Remember you are about to put another $XXXX.XX of tile and mortar and grout and $XXXX.XX labor into this build. And then when it finally fails youve lost $XXXX.XX ? its a no brainer the right answer , but I do feel for you.



We all should be tired of the tile industry as a whole telling average homeowners to go ahead and buy this kit and build your own shower! You dont really need John or Robertos 20+ yrs of hands on experience, we now have many online booksmart people to train you from a desk. Why should I hold any allegiance to any one MFG in this industry?

Even the skilled DIY homeowner may not be suited for this buildout, it is afterall a specialty one can only obtain thru years of HANDS ON tooling. .


Tech support ??? really

The first question to ask when calling tech support from any MFG. is how much hands on in the field building experience the tech person has ????? or if they are trained in booksmarts and reciting jargon from a trained aspect and ask them to be honest in their response!. I find my local field reps to be the best support for cutting thru the BS.



I find the bottom line at most MFG tech support is first and foremost to control the end users warranty claim/concern and steer it in their favor from the onset of the call, while documenting the call...simply cover the companys but FIRST.. You will never get a refund or any actual resolution this way, you will get insulted tired frustrated and comfused. You must guarantee your own work seperate of the MFG, which in the end means you need hands on skills that are aquired by actual experience.

E.G. my flood test failed, i did everything you said by the book, i even took pictures and looked at all the date codes on the products, I used bottled water, and had a dust controlled environment throughout???? I PROMISE. I need your help MFG because I still need to finish this project in 2 weeks as my clients have no shower to wash up in and my companys name is at stake here....... Is the Orange, Green, Blue company gonna quickly come to the site, give you a full refund to buy another 1k worth of materials and get you back on track to finish this project and possibly save your business????After all, you the tile guy are the one they want to use more of their product.

I think NOT. They are gonna delude you with long emails, longer phone calls, forms to fill out, legal jargon, claim deadlines, and in the end insulting offers to be trained at their facility by more desk tech sales reps. They are gonna do all this while you are busy trying to keep your small buisness afloat and save your own A$$.

Has anyone here ever filed a claim or even ever heard of a refund being given?? COVER YOUR OWN A$$, do not rely on bogus warranty claims.


JIM:


I will now commend you for looking past the orange and into the green this week. It is a step in the right direction and It has not gone unnoticed.

And i have seen very few redirecting links. Keep it up and we can arrange for John to buy you a new pair of Chuck taylor hi tops. Although we may have to custom order a waterproof pair of kerditaylors just for you.!
 

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Today is Friday, I do not know if they close for Good Friday, but many businesses are open...I'd call them.

I must admit, I don't usually look at pictures posted on an external site...too many chances of bad links. But...I did look just now and am modifying my response.

If you look closely, you can tell that the surface appears uneven and the color of the Kerdi membrane is not consistent indicating that it was not embedded well into the mortar. And, there's a lot of thinset on top of the seams and what appear to be puckering of the banding material. To get a good seal, all of the membranes out there, require that you have intimate contact of the fleece from both layers of the fleece and full contact layer of an appropriately mixed and applied thinset.

It would take a fair amount of thinset on the outside of a seam to get much wicking up and over, but if it is there, it may not be leaking through anything. I did say to take a close look at that area. Once the membrane is covered in thinset and a tile and grout, very little liquid water ever gets to the membrane. A flood test is a worst case scenario. I'd find the source of the drips, but if it is wicking over the top, it's not an issue.
 
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Jadnashua

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Clearly A failed flood test.

I do not usually look at external links for pictures, and did not see them. But, I think it's kind of extreme here to tell them to tear it out and start over. You need the areas with puckers to be removed, and then cover them with new material, overlapping everything at least the 2" specified in the instructions.

There are hundreds of thousands of Kerdi showers out in the world, and they work. Over the last year, most of the major suppliers have been coming out with similar shower systems (the patent ran out). They must think that it works, too, or why supply something like that? ANd, if you'll look at the new Laticrete sheet membrane, they list drywall as an acceptable substrate for it! Now, you don't have only Schluter to kick around for saying it works...you have another major manufacturer that says it too....Maybe they know something all of the detractors don't...built it right with proper materials, and it only matters that the substrate is stable and strong enough...it doesn't get wet. I'm sure this has John cringing in the corner...maybe he's wrong.

Whatever the issue is, disregard these people that are here to bash a product they don't understand or believe in. Talk to the source - Schluter has an office in Montreal, but it's a toll-free number.
 
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Jadnashua

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What happens to water in use?

I've made the comment that 99.99% of the water hitting a shower goes down the drain, and been condemned as a fool, so I thought maybe a little math might help things a bit rather than hyperbole.

I'm talking about a bonded sheet membrane shower build (B422 TCNA standard) with something like Kerdi.

Take a 3'x3' shower pan. Figure a fairly typical 2x2 tile, and the last one I used by Dal-Tile was about 3/16" thick. On the pan, that's about a volume of 243 cu in of material. A good porcelain has in the order of a 0.1% absorbtion of water max - IOW, totally and fully saturated...so, if we assume the tile is fully saturated, that's about 2.4 cu in of water.

Now, let's say that that's set in a layer of thinset 1/8" thick with proper workmanship so there are no voids beneath the tile. 36x36x0.125"=162 cu in. Let's say that between the sand, cement, and other potential fillers in the thinset, it can hold maybe 5% moisture. That works out to about 8.1 cu in of water.

There's also some grout lines, and using a 2x2, that's 18 each way, or 36x36x3/16x0.125 for an 1/8" grout line 3/16" high, or 30.4 cu in. Let's assume that can hold 5% of it's volume as water, so we get 1.5 cu in of water.

Let's add all of this up:
tile 2.4
thinset 8.1
grout 1.5
or a total of 12 cu in of water. Since a gallon is 231 cu in, let's now say you take a shower for (combined users) of an hour (maybe you have a teenager, and it could be more in a day) at a mandated max 2.5gpm of water you have 60*2.5=150 gallons, or 150*231= 34650 cu in of water.

The most you could get into the tile, thinset, grout on the pan is, if you can rationalize my numbers, is 12cu in. So 12/34650=.0034%, way less than what I indicated and was chastised as being foolish. How many showers built over a surface membrane have both their tile, grout, and thinset totally saturated? None, if they are built right.

Now, if this was a conventional mudbed, even that small amount can accumulate in the very porous, very thick (say 1/8" of thinset verses 1.5" of deckmud - that's over 12x more that can get wet and it's MUCH more porous than thinset).

One of the advantages of a surface membrane shower build...there's VERY little to get wet, and unless you have a build problem or chose a very porous tile, it dries out between daily uses. But, if you listen to John, I'm a fool, and do not know anything. That little bit of water, building up or finding its way out of a shower is a concern, but again on a properly built shower with a surface membrane, it just never gets out in the first place, and there's very little that can stay wet, either.
 

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If those pics are of the shower in question. I would be concerned for the person paying for the work, which seems to be the person building it in this case. Regardless the color of the membrane. Simply asK yourself if you are a gambler or not, and proceed accordingly. All the math and desk jockeying theory will not save your investment. And you will absolutely lose a good chunk of dough after the fact when you tear it out tile and all. If the curb is leaking now and the seams look sloppy, and i am in fact seeing many blisters , that simply tells
Me to proceed with great caution! Now im thinking no custom orange chuck taylors for our resident overposter??
 

MikeQ

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Hi All,

I have installed a shower using 32 x 60 schluter kerdi Kit and I am now flood testing it for my own piece of mind. It has been filled for about 36 hours now and has dropped about an 1/8 of inch.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f8zvolotyvyv2ht/IMG_2323.JPG

I filled a bucket with the same depth of water and it has dropped about a 1/16. My question is, is it normal for kerdi to wick water up on the outside. The water seems to be wicking up a 1/4 inch, then across the top of the curb and then dripping down the opposite side on to the floor.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kn979rn4jmv0kcl/IMG_2324.JPG

The water is also wicking up the walls on the outside. It's wet to the touch.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6rciv0hb93w6mk4/IMG_2327.JPG

The other side of the walls are open and I don't see any water at all.

Is this something I should be concerned about or is this just normal? Does this flood test pass?
Thanks for any help you can give!

The photos do not look like any normal Kerdi shower build I've seen. It appears there is sharp aggregate in the mortar used to bed the Kerdi.

Also, is that Ditra under the Kerdi on the shower floor?
 

Eurob

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Hi All,

I have installed a shower using 32 x 60 schluter kerdi Kit and I am now flood testing it for my own piece of mind. It has been filled for about 36 hours now and has dropped about an 1/8 of inch.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f8zvolotyvyv2ht/IMG_2323.JPG

I filled a bucket with the same depth of water and it has dropped about a 1/16. My question is, is it normal for kerdi to wick water up on the outside. The water seems to be wicking up a 1/4 inch, then across the top of the curb and then dripping down the opposite side on to the floor.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kn979rn4jmv0kcl/IMG_2324.JPG

The water is also wicking up the walls on the outside. It's wet to the touch.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6rciv0hb93w6mk4/IMG_2327.JPG




The other side of the walls are open and I don't see any water at all.

Is this something I should be concerned about or is this just normal? Does this flood test pass?
Thanks for any help you can give!


Jean-Claude ,

It appears that your pan is filled almost to the top of the curb . What we are seeing in your photo is just normal . Filling the pan almost to the top of the curb combined with the wicking of the Kerdi results in the water going on the other side of the curb .

I don't think you have a flood test failed , but is the wicking normal ? With Kerdi it is ........



With a liquid membrane -- Hydroban -- or cementituous membrane -- Ardex 8+9 , PRP 315 -- the wicking condition would not have happened .
 

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Jim said:
call Schluter's tech support line - real people that know and use the product every day.
That should have been your last piece of advice for the OP Jim.
You are not qualified no matter how many framed certificates you have hanging up.

John- And enough out of you already. The deletion of your posts in numerous threads has made it almost impossible to follow along negating the usefulness of the sub foum. Terry might as well just redirect everyone to John Bridge that clicks. The Shower and Bathtub forum is now Swiss cheese. Any small amount of advice that might have been derived from reading threads is now gone. By getting your hand slapped and running scared you have done more damage to the forum than you think you have helped. Thanks John for your larger than life ego.

Jim-You are a low level tech rep with a cushier chair and better coffee.

RedShoecounterbalance- I like you. :D
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Just a Drip.

I only removed any info pertaining to Schluter. What would you have done if called and told to be careful in your wording.

These posts help singular users. Every one I have helped in the past is all ready "Helped" - those researching old discussions will need to ask their own questions.

For years I have been telling people the fleece in a sheet membrane wicks water. For years ya-who's say it's not so.

I have learned to incorporate capillary breaks into my flood tests. Pretty sure Schluter has no spec on this so clearly I must be wrong. But lets say you like me build and flood tested shower after shower, year after year and learned a way to stop the action of water wicking over a curb top.

Now before - I had the pictures up showing this. But I used ______ Fix as a capillary break. Being careful in my wording - and understanding that this is not what Kerdi Fix is designed for the info has been deleted. By me.

Try and find this info on the John Bridge Forum. With photo's. Should take you all day if you find it.

Don't be mad at me for the missing pictures - blame Schluter. Specifically Dale Kempster. This is the man that told me to watch my wording and be careful how I word things online. don't need that Just A Drip.

Testing out the new kids. The old kids. Got some more head to heads playing out. When I'm done with these test I'll have selected my next preferred supplier. I'll be very careful in my wording and will help out more with this new info.

Schluter - So last session. So last decade. So done.

....RedShoecounterbalance- I like you. :D

Me Too.
 
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ShowerDude

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I feel all the love! Orange green blue red i feel it all . In truth ive learned a lot from Jim's and Johns rants, it is a very good mirror to look into, helps one evaluate the kind if person they want to be and project. John wins hands down in actual skillset , building, and an uncanny type of genius, I can relate to his in the field cowboy approach, i simply know it needs to be done that way Sometimes. Jim wins salesman of the quarter for orange and while he really gets in my mirror often, i can say he recites some good points and is the guy i would bring to a legal battle in Germany with me. Im thinking Roberto chimes in with skillset knowledge an open mind and mostly unbiased! So we have a great trifecta of mirrors here. Look into them. Justadrip , vegas , adding good validity as well..... I gotta go work on an actual home for a client today cant say what color materials ill be using, may have to wing something on the spot, you know "make it work"
 

Eurob

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I feel all the love! Orange green blue red i feel it all . In truth ive learned a lot from Jim's and Johns rants, it is a very good mirror to look into, helps one evaluate the kind if person they want to be and project. John wins hands down in actual skillset , building, and an uncanny type of genius, I can relate to his in the field cowboy approach, i simply know it needs to be done that way Sometimes. Jim wins salesman of the quarter for orange and while he really gets in my mirror often, i can say he recites some good points and is the guy i would bring to a legal battle in Germany with me. Im thinking Roberto chimes in with skillset knowledge an open mind and mostly unbiased! So we have a great trifecta of mirrors here. Look into them. Justadrip , vegas , adding good validity as well..... I gotta go work on an actual home for a client today cant say what color materials ill be using, may have to wing something on the spot, you know "make it work"


You have to be unbiased and creative in the real world . Once you lock yourself with one MFG , when bad things happen your hands are cuffed . No escape , but swallow whatever comes your way .

I can say what color materials I will be using ...... hybrids ones .:D


I could give you a bunch of RED flags with quotes that doesn't make sense -- just run arounds -- but it will create more of the same , instead of having a progressive discussion .

Who's looking into them also comes in mind .....and if looking how the rants of John Whipple about flood testing progressed , I would say he successfully did it . Even Schluter FAQ include them now in their literature . We can give him the credit for it . :)
 

Jadnashua

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FWIW, if you read my posts, I suggest products from a variety of companies. It's just that when confronted with biased, incorrect, and often misused advice on Schluter products, since I know them reasonably well, I counter with correct information, at least based on the history of the product, having used it personally, and having been trained by the factory personnel. The hits that get the most discussion are with people like John that do not use it as designed, and tested, and warranted and misrepresent it, like dissing Ditra Drain for not being waterproof...well, it has holes in it by design, how would one expect it to be waterproof? It is an uncoupling membrane that offers the secondary function of a drainage mat, two parts of a well-designed outdoor deck, but not the only parts. As opportunities arise, I continue to spread out so that I can more easily recognize false or misleading information so I can address it, regardless of the source. Being a 'pro' involves more than making something pretty on the outside. It also requires using the products as designed to achieve a reliable build in a cost effective and timely manner.
 

ShowerDude

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Jims favorite taco salad

Here we have a most harmonius balance, Noble wedi laticrete schluter and a dash of CBP and USG souix chief... All colors reported a great time working together and were happy to meet each other in the middle of my clients budget. Pretty sure we met ansi and tcna standards and we threw in a 4 day flood test prior to my client paying me. No ten foot columns were used tho! Dare i call this a hybrid and warranty my own work?
 

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