Is my backwash Drain from Softener OK? -Pic included...

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Chevy427

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The principles of an 'air-gap' are two: to prevent liquid from enter either through force or siphoning. By having approximately 1" space between the drain line and the drain no liquids should enter the drain lines of softeners or ROs from the drains 'flood level".

This is to prevent the drain lines from contamination which may find its way back to the equipment. Air gaps are generally to prevent liquid contamination (and the contaminants carried by liquids) but in some cases to prevent gaseous contamination, too. Backflow preventers can help prevent liquids from re-entering the equipment but may not do so well with gases. Gases are normally prevented with traps.

Your plumber is probably right when he says the chances of water entering at that height are virtually impossible (flood level being far below that point) but still not acceptable to codes and vents do nothing to prevent gases--in fact they are designed to contain and channel (sewage) gases.
 

Hobiecatter

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The principles of an 'air-gap' are two: to prevent liquid from enter either through force or siphoning. By having approximately 1" space between the drain line and the drain no liquids should enter the drain lines of softeners or ROs from the drains 'flood level".

This is to prevent the drain lines from contamination which may find its way back to the equipment. Air gaps are generally to prevent liquid contamination (and the contaminants carried by liquids) but in some cases to prevent gaseous contamination, too. Backflow preventers can help prevent liquids from re-entering the equipment but may not do so well with gases. Gases are normally prevented with traps.

Your plumber is probably right when he says the chances of water entering at that height are virtually impossible (flood level being far below that point) but still not acceptable to codes and vents do nothing to prevent gases--in fact they are designed to contain and channel (sewage) gases.

Understandable. Thanks. I was aware of the physical water contamination but wasn't thinking of the gases. So since my design would cause the trap to siphon out and be useless, if I were to put a proper air gap there instead and still have it drain into the vent pipe, I would be "legal"?
 

Hobiecatter

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i'm not a plumber, as i stated in my orig. post. I do know that you are not supposed to drain any fixture into another fixture's vent like the way you have it. that's all i said. you may think it is ok and some small town plumber and inspector may ok it, but it is not the correct way to do it from everything i have ever read about plumbing on here or other sites. do as you wish, it's not my house.

Thanks Chad. I understand what you are saying. Sorry I know there are just do many different ways to do the same thing. It's just frustrating to me because I find a lot of contradictions on this site sometimes.

One thing that I have searched to death is this air gap situation and I cannot find anywhere online that says an air gap into the vent stack is not code. Even browsing on Inspectors forums, they all seem to say its ok as long as it's air gapped correctly and not just tied into the stack directly.

I mean why are there even places that sell the air gaps that claim it is ok to attach on to the standpipes for washing machines. Such as these...http://www.ecotech-dla.com/dla-g.htm

does anyone have any link or something saying that it is NOT code? because everything I see says it's ok.
 
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Dlarrivee

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I'm really confused on what all of that pipe insulation is supposed to be doing.
 

Chad Schloss

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Thanks Chad. I understand what you are saying. Sorry I know there are just do many different ways to do the same thing. It's just frustrating to me because I find a lot of contradictions on this site sometimes.

One thing that I have searched to death is this air gap situation and I cannot find anywhere online that says an air gap into the vent stack is not code. Even browsing on Inspectors forums, they all seem to say its ok as long as it's air gapped correctly and not just tied into the stack directly.

I mean why are there even places that sell the air gaps that claim it is ok to attach on to the standpipes for washing machines. Such as these...http://www.ecotech-dla.com/dla-g.htm

does anyone have any link or something saying that it is NOT code? because everything I see says it's ok.

there's nothing wrong with an air gap. i like that link you provided. that is pretty cool. the issue is not over an air gap, it is about having a fixture drain into the dedicated vent for the fixture below it. if you don't understand that what you are doing is not correct, but most likely will work but probably won't pass code, then I don't know what to tell you. you should post a new post in the plumbing section instead of the water softener one. you will get more (real) plumbers like HJ, redwood, etc who will be able to tell you more. Sorry I can't be of any more help. you should direct them here by copying the link in your browser and posting it in your new message with a description of what your intentions are.
 

Hobiecatter

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I'm really confused on what all of that pipe insulation is supposed to be doing.

The pipe insulation where? on the bottom of the p-trap? This is in the attic, so it's prevention for the water in the p-trap to keep from freezing. The plumber put insulation all around the p-trap to prevent it from freezing as this SHOULD be the only place that the water would collect.
 

Hobiecatter

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there's nothing wrong with an air gap. i like that link you provided. that is pretty cool. the issue is not over an air gap, it is about having a fixture drain into the dedicated vent for the fixture below it. if you don't understand that what you are doing is not correct, but most likely will work but probably won't pass code, then I don't know what to tell you. you should post a new post in the plumbing section instead of the water softener one. you will get more (real) plumbers like HJ, redwood, etc who will be able to tell you more. Sorry I can't be of any more help. you should direct them here by copying the link in your browser and posting it in your new message with a description of what your intentions are.

Thanks for your help Chad. I'll look into it a little more and ask those guys. I think from searching more it's called "wet venting" which is defined as "a waste pipe that also serves as a vent pipe." Apparently is it allowed in some areas and not others. I'll just have to check with my local inspector.
 

Chad Schloss

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You can't wet vent between floors from what I remember reading also. Hope you get some clarity on this from a plumber soon. :)
 

Dlarrivee

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The pipe insulation where? on the bottom of the p-trap? This is in the attic, so it's prevention for the water in the p-trap to keep from freezing. The plumber put insulation all around the p-trap to prevent it from freezing as this SHOULD be the only place that the water would collect.

The pipe insulation everywhere.

Is that magical insulation that also creates heat?
 

Hobiecatter

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The pipe insulation everywhere.

Is that magical insulation that also creates heat?

I'm no plumber and my plumber installed that, but isn't that what pipe insulation is supposed to do? prevent from freezing? of course it doesn't creat heat, but would it not protect against freezing to a certain degree? If not, what is pipe insulation invented for?

Maybe in Canada you guys don't use pipe insulation because it gets too cold for too long? In Texas it is used a lot for PVC.
 

Dlarrivee

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I don't feel like explaining such simple things, but since you're in Texas I doubt it would be a problem.

In Canada, we don't run water or drains in the attic.

Insulation just slows things down, it doesn't prevent cold temperatures from freezing water.

We also don't run water lines in exterior walls...

But for the record this isn't a Canada vs. S. US thing, it's a common sense thing.
 

Dlarrivee

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If not, what is pipe insulation invented for?

Preventing heat loss on steam lines, protecting personnel from burns on steam lines, trapping heat from electric or glycol heat tracing, preventing sweating or condensation in humid areas w/ cold lines...

If a trap is full of water, and the ambient air is below freezing, the air inside the pipe is below freezing and 6" of the pipe has some foam on it, what exactly is keeping the water from freezing?
 

Hobiecatter

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Preventing heat loss on steam lines, protecting personnel from burns on steam lines, trapping heat from electric or glycol heat tracing, preventing sweating or condensation in humid areas w/ cold lines...

If a trap is full of water, and the ambient air is below freezing, the air inside the pipe is below freezing and 6" of the pipe has some foam on it, what exactly is keeping the water from freezing?

oh I see. Yeah on the p-trap I agree with you. That was just the plumbers work. I did ask him what happens when that p-trap freezes and he wrapped it up.

Like I said, I am not a plumber and have learned quite a lot about it in the last few months. Thanks for exlpaining. It is rare that it stays below freezing here for more than 48 hours consecutively. Especially in the attic. But we do hit the 20's for a couple of days a year. Even though it's usually tried to be avoided, down here it is fairly common to run water lines in exerior walls (if insulated).
 

Dlarrivee

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You might be surprised at how different our attitude is towards things like that here vs. Texas where like you said, it would be strange to have below freezing for more than a couple days.
 

Gary Slusser

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Assuming you have a slab foundation and there isn't another place to put the drain lines... If you sell the house someday and someone complains the drain stuff is not code and wants you to 'fix' it, tell them what experience you have had with its operation and assuming there were no problems, then tell them that you will remove the offending drain lines and the softener and they can buy their own and install it however they like; or not buy the house. And if they insist, then remove the unit and drain lines and find another buyer.

BTW, I thught there was a hole drilled in the pipe under the softener drain line connection and now with saving teh picture and lightening it so I could see better, I don't see one. If yu drilled a few 1/2" holes, like for of them in the pipe under the reducing fittings, you'd have an air gap or that part but, backup water is never going to get up that pipe to overflow and gases can go out the standpipe as they have been doing since the original construction if there are any. And with the drilled holes, there is no way that a vacuum can be created to suck water out of your trap. There isn't any way now either with the stand pipe being straight and uncapped.

Also, I don't know about calling your drain lines a fixture; a softener is usually called an appliance. Plus your flow is only 1/2" at a time as long as the filter and softener don't run at the same time; the vent pipe is 1.5" or 2". And when is the last time y'all did laundry at 2-3AM?
 
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Cacher_Chick

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That is a VENT with a direct connection the sewer! If there were any holes in it, the attic would fill with sewer gas.
If this idea appeals to you, then go right ahead.
 

Mialynette2003

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Gary, I think the concern is having the water in the washer pee trap being sucked out. Not the one in the attic. I asked my brother-in-law about that and he said it could happen. I wouldn't think so with such a big pipe and not that much water flow.
 

Cacher_Chick

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I can't believe this thread is still going.... the internet is full of people giving bad advice.

The plumbing code is the minimum requirement for any plumbing installation.

If you want to discuss all the ways something might or might not work and ignore the standards of good plumbing, you would be better off on the handyman forums.
 

Gary Slusser

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This is in an existing house where a filter and softener have been installed sometime after construction. If there was a problem with sewer gas, I think it would have shown up by now and there has not been any mention of it so I think we are safe to assume there is no sewer gas problem going to be created by the drain line installation.

The 1/2" flow from this equipment is not going to block a 2" washer drain or create a vacuum to suck out water from the washer trap because the top of the 2" line is wide open up there in the attic. I'm not a fan of vents terminating in the attic but I've had a house or two that had them and didn't have any odor problems. I've also had a washer drain without any other vent and there was no problem with draining etc.. And I've seen many houses with this type non code drain lines and they were decades old and had no problems.

Also, we don't know if the vent is on the sewer line or a separate line for the washer into a separate drain 'field' for only the washer.
 
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