Prevention of Electrocution in Weather

DonL · Dec 24, 2011

Rich B said:
Don I have owned my Fluke since 1993. I paid $300 for it. It has been rpaired and recalibrated about 2 or 3 times. It has been drop kicked.....dropped in a bucket of anti-freeze....and generally beat up and used everyday.
It still works....I don'lt think that is overpriced.....They do make lower priced models that read HZ and in my line of work that feature is a must have....Cheers...

Nice story, Thanks for sharing Rich.

The Fluke meter is worth the investment in the long run, no doubt. It is a great meter.

When I worked in a Electronic Cal lab, I seen cheap meters and I have seen expensive meters put thru the same test.
Same result.

We did not do drop test in the cal lab, but the Fluke will win every time if we did.
Drop test are done in destructive testing. That was fun with Flight Material, shooting bullets at Aircraft windows.

I have seen Fluke's dropped from 200 feet while checking a repeater setting, All you do is pick them up, wipe the mud off, and say this is a cool meter, I may not get fired after all, but my boss would say "It must have been a Fluke" .. lol

When welding DC sticks more than AC if you don't get the ark going, or is that my imagination.

I still say 120VAC is not as dangerous as 120VDC. They can both kill.

And I agree that the current is what Kills you, But it takes Voltage to get the process going...

JWelectric · Dec 24, 2011

ballvalve said:
I have a Big lincoln dc welder on wheels with a ac outlet for about 20 amps. Runs on a Perkins dielsel. fantastic machine, and I have used it and the little lincoln red ac box for decades in all sorts of weather and conditions. Never got a tingle or shock under any crazy situation.

Perhaps you can elaborate on why these devices that generate such 'heat' electrically seem never to harm the human? Is it safe to weld in the wet dirt with a good pair of boots and gloves on?

http://nasdonline.org/document/1858...n-electrocuted-while-welding-feed-bunker.html

read this .

Sponsor · 2022-01-29T12:20:58-0800

Rich B · Dec 25, 2011

DonL said:
When welding DC sticks more than AC if you don't get the ark going, or is that my imagination.

I still say 120VAC is not as dangerous as 120VDC. They can both kill.

And I agree that the current is what Kills you, But it takes Voltage to get the process going...

Stick Welding with DC is much smoother and just plain better. AC welding these days is more for tig welding Aluminum.

I do also agree 120 volts DC is probably more dangerous than 120 volts AC.
Thomas Edison did a lot more than invent the light bulb......His power company generated DC power and was in direct competition with Westinghouse I think it was that pushed AC power at the time. The first electrci chair was DC powered. Westinghouse used that fact to paint DC as being more dangerous than AC. I think the real reason AC won the battle was because it was easier to transmit it over a distance and also easier to boost it to higher voltages.

My father worked for Thomas A Edison Industires his entire working life...44 years. West Orange NJ. He saw him a few times when Edison was old and my father was young....They have a museum there and also the first movie theatre. Edison was a genius and I was always amazed at seeing the things he worked with in that museum when I was a kid. He invented and worked on so many things it's unreal....I think the first lights in New York City were powered by the Edison Electric Co....DC power...

JWelectric · Dec 25, 2011

Rich B said:
I do also agree 120 volts DC is probably more dangerous than 120 volts AC.
Thomas Edison did a lot more than invent the light bulb......His power company generated DC power and was in direct competition with Westinghouse I think it was that pushed AC power at the time. The first electrci chair was DC powered. Westinghouse used that fact to paint DC as being more dangerous than AC....

You got this backwards. Edsion tried to name the chair the AC chair after Westinghouse won the bid to light the World Fair with Tesla's AC

Jimbo · Dec 25, 2011

DonL said:
DC will normally make you hold on, While AC will Kick you off and make you let go.

Them big Caps can shock your Butt,...

You have that backwards. DC kicks you away..and AC can make your muscles contract and hold on. ( Note that capacitors store DC energy, not AC). Note that if you touch a capacitor in a deenergized circuit, or even get a static electric shock on door knob...note that your hand is knocked away.

And 60hz AC, in the less-than-100ma range, can cause heart fibrillation, which is a killer. That is why high voltage workers are sometimes burned but survive much higher current because the heart does not fibrillate.

DonL · Dec 25, 2011

jimbo said:
You have that backwards. DC kicks you away..and AC can make your muscles contract and hold on. ( Note that capacitors store DC energy, not AC). Note that if you touch a capacitor in a deenergized circuit, or even get a static electric shock on door knob...note that your hand is knocked away.

And 60hz AC, in the less-than-100ma range, can cause heart fibrillation, which is a killer. That is why high voltage workers are sometimes burned but survive much higher current because the heart does not fibrillate.

Thanks Jimbo,

That makes a lot of sense.

The thing that makes DC more dangerous is because most people think that just because the power is OFF then You can't get shocked. Caps are very dangerous, if not properly discharges. Most have bleeders resistors just for that purpose.

I have been shocked many times over the years, and the jerking away and hitting something hurts more than the shock itself.

Rich B · Dec 25, 2011

jwelectric said:
You got this backwards. Edsion tried to name the chair the AC chair after Westinghouse won the bid to light the World Fair with Tesla's AC

You're right..my bad....Was too long ago for me to recall exactly what I learned about the subject in the past. I knew there was quite a battle waged between the 2 opposing men and their companies.

Tesla was smarter than Edison when it came to electricity and Westinghouse won the war...

DonL · Dec 25, 2011

jwelectric said:
You got this backwards. Edsion tried to name the chair the AC chair after Westinghouse won the bid to light the World Fair with Tesla's AC

I think that you are referring to "The Electric Chair" It was AC , And the Frequency was varied, to get the full effect. 60 cycles was not all that affective.

And JW, Why did you edit Rich's post ?

Rich, Did Your father help design that one ?

I think we still have one in operation in Texas.

JWelectric · Dec 25, 2011

DonL said:
IAnd JW, Why did you edit Rich's post ?.

to fix the quote marks
I know I should have explained why in the little box

Edited to add
I went back and expained

Rich B · Dec 25, 2011

Don my father was a printer. He didn't design anything...LOL.....He set type by hand and whatever else had to be done running old printing equipment. Edison's Company had their own print shop and they printed everything the company needed. I was there a few times as a kid. The building he worked at is still there and directly across the street from the museum that I think is also still there. Edison had 2 places in NJ. West Orange and Menlo Park. Menlo Park is next to or part of the town of Edison....

I have no idea why my post was edited..........I did not post anything offensive...

Censoring posts? Not really a good thing if you expect to have anyone interested in staying here.......

OK editing is not censoring.....See ya....

DonL · Dec 25, 2011

Rich B said:
Don my father was a printer. He didn't design anything...LOL.....He set type by hand and whatever else had to be done running old printing equipment. Edison's Company had their own print shop and they printed everything the company needed. I was there a few times as a kid. The building he worked at is still there and directly across the street from the museum that I think is also still there. Edison had 2 places in NJ. West Orange and Menlo Park. Menlo Park is next to or part of the town of Edison....

I have no idea why my post was edited..........I did not post anything offensive...

Censoring posts? Not really a good thing if you expect to have anyone interested in staying here.......

OK editing is not censoring.....See ya....

I do not think that JW meant any harm. I did not see anything bad in your post. I just wondered. It must have been my Quote, I did not say anything bad, Some of your words were missing, Bad You... lol , I am with you... Please come back to play.

I remember setting LEAD type using the "California Job Case" they were in a wood box.
I bet your father knew the locations of the letters with his eyes closed.

Enjoy Your Holiday.

Stay home and leave this ride up to the real Drunks...

Rich B · Dec 25, 2011

My father could read a newspaper upside down and backwards about as fast as anyone could read it normal....

He worked 44 years in that print shop. He was born in 1910. He went to work at Edisons when he was a young man.

He beacme too sick to work and had to retire before he was 60. He had numerous health problems and died at 65.

Parkinsons.....than a heart attack. He lived with other problems we could get fixed pretty easily today......

He smoked a lot....Camels.......2 packs a day.....I used to go buy them for him when I was a kid at the local drug store. less than 25 cents a pack to kill yourself slowly.......I did the same thing for many years.....

I sometimes wonder if the chemicals he handled made him sick or did he get the Parkinsons in the flu epidemic I have read about from around 1918.......I saw a show once that said they thought it led to an outbreak of Parkinsons later in life.

Parkinsons is a terrible affliction......I saw it first hand and it's effects......

My mother lived to 96........My father died at 65....Woman have it made.....Men get the short end of the stick...LOL

Now we're way off topic....

Happy Holidays.....

Ballvalve · Dec 25, 2011

jwelectric said:
http://nasdonline.org/document/1858...n-electrocuted-while-welding-feed-bunker.html

read this .

Interesting article but predictable result - and the victim was mentally 'impaired' . from the looks of his housekeeping in the shop, he should have been killed years earlier. It seems it was the line voltage that got him, not the secondary welding power.

That little Lincoln welder with a 7018 AC rod is still my first choice for many tasks. If you do a pre-heat with propane, the welds are perfect. But is the moral to simply keep all wires fresh and suit up dry and well?

Rich B · Dec 25, 2011

Lincoln engine driven welders all produce DC so why are you using a 7018 AC rod.....

Lincolns are ture generators.....Segmented commutator style armatures....like an old car generator.

Miller engine drives all produce AC.....they are alternators......brushes on a set of slip rings producing AC voltage. That voltage is pushed thru a rectifier and a stabilizer to make DC.....

I would still bet the guy was shocked by the welding output.....It's a classic scenario of stupidty though and OLD school farmer types seem to think they are invincible from machine dangers......They are not!

Ballvalve · Dec 25, 2011

Thats the 7018ac on the lincoln plug in buzz box.

Unless I'm welding a dozer in the field, Ill go to the Lincoln AC first. Know your machine and you can do anything. It CAN make welds like a TIG, if you've been on it enough.

Actually welded on a 1500# thumb to a Excavator with that box and a generator and a big pre-heat. Been lifting rocks like buicks for 8 years now and no cracks. that giant Lincoln is a beauty with only 800 hours on it, but what a pain to weld around that noise and haul those garden hose like cables.

DonL · Dec 25, 2011

Rich B said:
My father could read a newspaper upside down and backwards about as fast as anyone could read it normal....

He worked 44 years in that print shop. He was born in 1910. He went to work at Edisons when he was a young man.

He beacme too sick to work and had to retire before he was 60. He had numerous health problems and died at 65.

Parkinsons.....than a heart attack. He lived with other problems we could get fixed pretty easily today......

He smoked a lot....Camels.......2 packs a day.....I used to go buy them for him when I was a kid at the local drug store. less than 25 cents a pack to kill yourself slowly.......I did the same thing for many years.....

I sometimes wonder if the chemicals he handled made him sick or did he get the Parkinsons in the flu epidemic I have read about from around 1918.......I saw a show once that said they thought it led to an outbreak of Parkinsons later in life.

Parkinsons is a terrible affliction......I saw it first hand and it's effects......

My mother lived to 96........My father died at 65....Woman have it made.....Men get the short end of the stick...LOL

Now we're way off topic....

Happy Holidays.....

Off topic or not, Your Father was a good man.

Kind of reminds me of the life that I have lived...

DonL · Dec 25, 2011

A wire feed Mig/Tig welder will not even come close, when it comes to steel, and a rod in the field. Gas blows away from the nozzle, and does no good.

Stick welders have a hard time welding aluminum.

Got to have the proper shielding gas.

ActionDave · Dec 25, 2011

jimbo said:
You have that backwards. DC kicks you away..and AC can make your muscles contract and hold on. ( Note that capacitors store DC energy, not AC). Note that if you touch a capacitor in a deenergized circuit, or even get a static electric shock on door knob...note that your hand is knocked away.

And 60hz AC, in the less-than-100ma range, can cause heart fibrillation, which is a killer. That is why high voltage workers are sometimes burned but survive much higher current because the heart does not fibrillate.

While the heart fibrillation is the biggest threat of a short AC shock, they both contract your muscles and they both hurt.

Worst shock of my life came from an electronic ignition while working on an old Dodge pickup.

Rich B · Dec 26, 2011

DonL said:
A wire feed Mig/Tig welder will not even come close, when it comes to steel, and a rod in the field. Gas blows away from the nozzle, and does no good.

Stick welders have a hard time welding aluminum.

Got to have the proper shielding gas.

You are right Don about mig and tig welding and the gas issue.

They do make wire that does not need gas and it is used a lot for steel construction. Innershield is what it's called and they use it in a suitcase type wire feeder.

Stick welders are pretty much a must for out in the field type work and yes a guy who can really weld can stick weld and it looks perfect.

The shop I work in is a 50x100 2 story building with 2 rolling overhead cranes. We built mezzanines to increase our storage space about 10-15 years ago. The place used to be a wedling shop and they built tanks of all sizes. We had one of the former welders do some of the welding on the uprights. Overhead and vertical......perfect! Done with a stick. I did the rest. A lot of work......We also built a lot of rolling equipment......I built most of it. Generators on trailers. Built the trailers and than mounted the generators and added enclosures. Mostly they sit deteriorating but when there is a need for them they all generally go out...We also have a lot of others that we bought.....from 20kw to 400kw,is what we have. Anything bigger and we call someone else.
The second mezzanine we did we let that same welder do it all with his guys......,,

CHOLLA BOB · Dec 26, 2011

jwelectric said:
By multiplying the resistance of the human body times .15 you can see how much voltage it will take to be fatal. The average male at the age of 30 that is in prefect health with on injuries will have a resistance of about 10,000 ohms. That same person on a hot day while being sweaty will have a resistance of about 1,000 ohms.

10000 ohms of human resistance. That is something. Tesla researched the resonant frequency of objects; including people, which now binaural audio theory utilizes. I guess we have capacitance also; static electricity.

And to learn that my 1970 Plymouth Fury DC starter/alternator/battery can kill me if I do the correct series wiring; probably laying on wet ground would help.

Understanding how all this works can prevent a lot of bad unforeseeable situations. It's a higher level of getting common sense. Will read links today. Thanks!

Prevention of Electrocution in Weather

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