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Thread: Can I Use Any Thin Set With Kerdi? The ICC-ES Evaluation Report On Kerdi Says You Can

  1. #31
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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  2. #32
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    If drywall mud getting wetted by a laytex paint/primer/thinset/whatever really caused a bond-breaker, the paint on millions of rooms would be falling off when someone rubbed against it or bumped it. Trying to minimize the possibility is a best practice issue, how important in the real world, not sure, but I'm sure the legal gurus want it. Except when you're actually trying to remove drywall mud, how often have you had it fail when paintin, or adding thinset to it? It takes a lot of water and a lot of rubbing to get it fluid enough to do anything. Thinset has little 'excess' water in it...the water that is there is chemically incorporated into the cement as it cures. If you were using a medium bed mortar you might have an issue, but it still probably wouldn't. To preclude the small possibility, a prudent practice is to mitigate problems, and Schluter recommends a primer to seal away the moisture. Best practice is to not put it there in the first place. With the cost of labor to scrub the stuff off, it might be just as cheap to just replace the stuff with virgin drywall, then you've not got the problem at all. Tear it off, screw some new stuff up, and go for it.

    Nobody should be trying to do anything to dusty drywall, neither paint, nor wallpaper, nor thinset. So, trying that is just an indication of poor practices, and anything you try is open to subjective results.

    If you want to determine 'ultimate' stength, then wait the industry standard for cement products - 28-days. ALL products are spec'ed at 'full' strength after curing for that timeframe. You get a fair portion after 24-hours, and more at 7-days, but full strength is 28-days. In fact, cement products continue to get stronger the longer they cure. And, the bond between a waterproof membrane and a nearly impervious tile will achieve the full-rated strength more often with a dryset than with a modified that has trouble drying. Given enough time without stress loads, it might reach full strength. If you're talking about bond breakers, a modified over a waterproof membrane and a good porcelain large format tile, now you've got one if it is distrubed, as it needs to dry, and that can literally take more than the spec'ed 28-days.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  3. #33
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  4. #34
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  5. #35
    DIY Senior Member jch's Avatar
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    I may be kicking the hornet's nest here, but here I go anyway....

    I'm building a tiled shower in an area with a sloped ceiling with rafters 24" OC. Because of this span, I was going to use 5/8" drywall + Kerdi, rather than 1/2" Cement Board + Kerdi.

    The rest of the ceiling would be 5/8" drywall (again, because of the 24" span).

    Questions:
    - Is 1/2" Cement Board stiff enough to span 24" on a ceiling?
    - Does Cement Board come in 5/8" sheets?
    - How do you handle the transition from 1/2" Cement Board (to be Kerdi'd and tiled) to 5/8" drywall in the rest of the room? The transition occurs between rafters.

    *This* is the reason I was planning on using 5/8" Drywall behind the Kerdi in shower area...

    Any better approaches??
    ----------
    - John

  6. #36
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    You'd be better served with your own new thread...

    I've not seen 5/8" cbu, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'd not want to tile a ceiling with either with that span. Could you add some intermediate supports up there? Will there be insulation stacked on top of this as well? I'd worry about the weight of that, the board, and the tile trying to end up bowing the material which would lead to failure...not nice to have that fall! Some cbu specify the maximum spacing - you'd want to read the installation instructions very carefully to see if they'd allow it on 24" spacing on a ceiling. Then, you have to deal with your local code people.

    As an aside, the title to this thread is misleading...the referenced report says to follow the manufacturer's installation instructions, and the report covers both Kerdi, Ditra, DitraXL, and Kerdiboard. Depending on what you are installing, would call for different materials suitable to what you are installing it on, and the manufacturer's instructions do not call for just 'any' thinset, only one meeting specific specifications, brand independent, for the specific material and location of that installation.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  7. #37
    Homeowner geniescience's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jch View Post
    .... a sloped ceiling with rafters 24" OC.
    ...
    The rest of the ceiling would be 5/8" drywall (again, because of the 24" span).

    - How do you handle the transition from 1/2" ... to 5/8" ...

    *This* is the reason I was planning on using 5/8" Drywall behind the Kerdi in shower area...

    Any better approaches??
    Since kerdi requires thinset on both sides, why not use thinner substrate instead of the exact same thickness? I don't get it. The way you are planning it, your tile + thinset + keerdi + thinest will be thick, on a 5/8" thickness.... And this is because you want it to line up?? Btw, what are you planning to do at the end, use a Schluter profile, or a special tile, or nothing?

    In any case, I would make it all 12" between ceiling support members. Easy as pie. HAve you called the gypsum manufacturer to see if even 5/8" drywall will be warranteed hanging from studs 24" apart ??

  8. #38
    DIY Senior Member chefwong's Avatar
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    Hi John -

    Love to see some updates on the testing progression.
    I stumbled across this thread in research....or whether I'm going to use Kerdi or Liquid for my next project.
    Regardless, it would have been CBU for the wetwalls. It's just a lil more dust to hang the boards and more heft lugging it up a flight of stairs, but the labors all the same to me.

    Any reason not to post this same Topic of Discussion over at the JB Pro Forum....

  9. #39
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

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    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  11. #41
    DIY Senior Member chefwong's Avatar
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    A thought did come to me when I was reading the new test thread.
    Assuming that pink to white means dry. What if the chemical that makes it so dissolves due to evaporation/air.

    Have you done a control sample of just dried compound and then wet it again to indeed confirm it will turn back pink/blue in the prescense of water.

    I'm not on the forums that much to notice the editing....
    The only thing that is a peeve is the *project* biased single thread when oftentimes, for me at least, the questions for me are more general knowledge, underlying foundation stuff while pertinent to ~the project~ but moreso a general knowledge question. A general knowledge question with a good subject title to boot -- to possibly get more eyes on the subject, oftentimes may get moved back into my project thread only to not have a single eye on it since the title thread is not relevant to the new question I was asking.

    Here's a recent project of mine......I was hoping alot more pro's would give their feedback (whether positive or negative) but none of the regulars seem to care for the thread...

    http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...t=97112&page=6
    Last edited by chefwong; 01-07-2012 at 08:58 AM.

  12. #42
    DIY Senior Member chefwong's Avatar
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    BTW, on your notation of adhesion and Kerdi, Noble....and I'm sure you know this....but JC has glue/adhesives in it...
    GP obviously has more than a topping compound, but nontheless, I'm not surprised Kerdi/Noble will stick to JC....

  13. #43
    Homeowner geniescience's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnfrwhipple View Post
    I.... less editing, less thread removals, less thread splitting and more opinions than one common Orange Theme.

    I would love someone to post these same topics on the John Bridge forum. You would be surprised at how little the main contributors will contribute. You will also be surprised that information that is contrary to Schluter's advice will be posted and then confirmed many times by the regulars.
    ....
    because so much editing happens over there. I have seen whole posts get deleted and entire threads removed.
    It's worse than that. John W is being very soft in his criticism.
    They are willing to steer someone the wrong way in order to protect their sponsor membrane.

  14. #44
    DIY Senior Member chefwong's Avatar
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    JW or GS. PM me on the details on the remarks on JB.
    Or just post the info here.
    It's disconcerting if the information / advice being given may be biased if not wrong !

  15. #45
    Homeowner geniescience's Avatar
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    if it all comes out into the open, ultimately it will put Terry Love under a lot of pressure to delete it; i.e. "cease and desist".

    Just double check with the manufacturers of the products you are considering. Don't overthink things.


    There are millions of membraned showers that were made with products other than the orange membrane that is all over the internet. Lots of membrane products have been manufactured, distributed, bought and sold, installed and warrantee'd, and I mean products that are not made by the one big sponsor of that friendly tile site.

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