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Thread: DIY Pump Install Questions.

  1. #31
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    160 PSI poly is available in a variety of lengths. Around here most people direct bury poly pipe. PVC is not very popular. Most people drill a hole in the top of the casing and put in an eye bolt to secure the safety cable and the pitless release cable.

  2. #32
    DIY Junior Member Lobanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    To address ballvalve's logic, a trickle draw of 1/2 GPM will after 50 minutes from pump kick-out, turn on the pump and the pump would then run for 75 minutes, assuming no other water use in that 125 minute time frame. In the real world, there would likely be other water use, so that is worst case.
    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    Thanks for clarifying my point. If so, thats a huge run time.
    Also, look at THIS page from the CSV folks. It calculates that the pump will run 9 minutes at a time followed by 36 minutes of off time and it will do that 32 times a day if I leave the low flow stuff going all the time. Plenty enough time for pump cooling. And this is about the worst case for this design.

    But even if the pump does run for 75 minutes at a time, is that really a problem? I don't think I have a problem with cooling flow -- the pump is shrouded so all the water is flowing past the pump. And I don't think I have a problem with minimum pump cooling run time -- 9 minutes should be way more than necessary. Are you worried about the pump overheating? Or bearings wearing out or something?

    Perhaps there are real world practical issues that I can't see because I've never done any of this before.


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  3. #33
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobanz View Post
    Are you worried about the pump overheating? Or bearings wearing out or something?
    I am not worried about anything, just wanted to put worst case numbers to ballvalve's "running about forever" comment. As I said, the numbers are worst case and probably you will tweak the system to prevent that.

    At 60/80 PSI, Boyle's law says the drawdown will be less than what I used in my calculations.

    I'm guessing ballvalve may be concerned about energy consumption. I think your choice of Grundfos pump may draw less current when held back by the CSV than some other designs.

  4. #34
    DIY Junior Member Lobanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    I'm guessing ballvalve may be concerned about energy consumption. I think your choice of Grundfos pump may draw less current when held back by the CSV than some other designs.
    Yes, that's the main reason I chose the Grundfos over a Franklin.

    I thought about putting a bypass around the CSV with a ball valve in the bypass so that I could turn the CSV on and off. Then I could see which drew use more power. At some point, I may look at a battery bank for my generator (to use fuel more efficiently) in which case energy consumption may make a difference.

    My understanding is that having the pump throttled by the CSV uses less power per unit time, but would use more power per gallon of water moved since I'm assuming the pump's amp drop is not at all linear. So if you are watching energy consumption carefully in an extended power outage, it may be better to bypass the CSV (or just turn the CSV pressure setting up over your cut out setting) and just let the pump cycle more. The large tank will help there too. As will lower pressure settings. The air in the tank is adjustable and so is the pressure switch and the CSV too. A little tweaking of the knobs can optimize the system for that scenario.

  5. #35
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    To address ballvalve's logic, a trickle draw of 1/2 GPM will after 50 minutes from pump kick-out, turn on the pump and the pump would then run for 75 minutes, assuming no other water use in that 125 minute time frame.
    I take that back. My math was all wrong. Didn't calculate the GPM/pressure curve on the CSV. The table that Lobanz posted shows the real times.

  6. #36
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Or if you use 78 PSI for the setting of the CSV, you only have a 3 minute run time, as per the following chart. Also, 1" poly is all you need and will be much lighter and easier to grip.




    A
    Last edited by valveman; 12-17-2011 at 06:32 AM.

  7. #37
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Not to start a csv debate, but that 700 starts with the 4 gallon tank is pretty scary. Doesnt that far exceed Franklins suggested starts per day or hour?

    Would it mean that the guy with a bunch of leaks and drips should stay far from that small tank system, use the big tank? With the regulator, he lost the mainly constant pressure advantage, and might get only 36 or 40 starts a day without the csv.

    "My" csv is presently running the pressure about 55 to 85 into plain tanks and then a Pr regulator around 55. Keeps the pump on during higher use. I know you don't much like that idea.

    Seems like a bypass for winter in his case might pay back, save it for summer irrigation. And he should fix the leaks in any case.

    The poly underground is fine.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 12-17-2011 at 11:46 AM.

  8. #38
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Well for one thing we wouldn’t set the pressure the same with a 4.4 gallon tank. As you can see from the following, setting the pressure correctly would get this worst case scenario down to the 300 starts per day recommended by most motor manufacturers. However, we state on all our instructions and literature that a larger tank is recommended if there are long-term uses of less than 1 GPM. This is why we recommended to Lobanz that he use an 80 gallon size tank, after he explained that he was unable to use more than 1 GPM for his drip irrigation.



    We certainly don’t like a pressure regulator after the pressure tank. That keeps you at the low end of your pressure all the time, adds additional friction loss at high demand, and does nothing to reduce the number of cycles. But in a case where you need a large tank because of long-term use below 1 GPM, a pressure regulator after a CSV and pressure tank can serve a purpose. Staying at the low end of the pressure is at least constant pressure while waiting for the big tank to empty, to help with things like Instant Water Heaters.

  9. #39
    DIY Junior Member Lobanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valveman View Post
    We certainly donít like a pressure regulator after the pressure tank. That keeps you at the low end of your pressure all the time, adds additional friction loss at high demand, and does nothing to reduce the number of cycles. But in a case where you need a large tank because of long-term use below 1 GPM, a pressure regulator after a CSV and pressure tank can serve a purpose. Staying at the low end of the pressure is at least constant pressure while waiting for the big tank to empty, to help with things like Instant Water Heaters.

    I thought above 70 PSI or so was a little much for in the house. 60 PSI has been fine with us so far.

    I have the 60 PSI pressure regulator now with utility water because my Dad's house was flooded when a utility water pressure surge burst his washing machine hoses and flooded his house for 2 weeks while he was on vacation. He came home to water flowing out his front door. Flooded his basement. House had to be gutted.

  10. #40
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    If i understand your earlier post, you are running on a generator [?] that would change all these equations. In such case spend 600 bucks on a 3000 gallon static tank, forget the hand pump and get it up high enough for gravity flow in a power outage. Fill the tank with a float valve at about 1/3 down. Now your pump will go full life. What you do after the tank is up for grabs.

  11. #41
    DIY Junior Member Lobanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    If i understand your earlier post, you are running on a generator [?] that would change all these equations. In such case spend 600 bucks on a 3000 gallon static tank, forget the hand pump and get it up high enough for gravity flow in a power outage. Fill the tank with a float valve at about 1/3 down. Now your pump will go full life. What you do after the tank is up for grabs.
    Generator only for emergencies. Would be nice to have an elevated tank, but my land is all totally flat. For 40 PSI, I think the tank would have to be about 93' above my house (40 / .43). If my house were at the bottom of a big hill, that might work.

    I may end up doing just that for drip irrigation, though. The drip system is designed for very low pressure. A 1000 gal tank 6 or 7 feet high should do it fine. Have been toying with building a concrete generator shed with steel reinforced roof and putting the tank on top. That would be much better on the pump than a 1/2 gpm drip flow. That will have to wait a while though.

  12. #42
    Porky Cutter,MGWC Porky's Avatar
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    Valveman explained it best but I have a few concerns! (1) I think Alabama requires that the casing extend at lease 12" above ground (No wells in a pit)! (2) Using a hand pump to pump pressure into a pressure tank isn't easy! (3) Most Public systems regulators won't condone (allow) their systems to be physically connected to a well system! We would have the public water faucet and well water faucet independent of each other. Then in the event of a well water system failure we would connect them together faucet to faucet with a short Washing Machine Hose (female to female connections). That's a temporary but legal hookup.
    Porky Cutter, MGWC
    (Master Ground Water Consultant)

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