Overdrawing a shallow well?

I figured it would be easy enough to ascertain simply by pulling up the drop pipe. Personally, I would have done that before digging up the yard. The buried stuff can simply be pressure tested and if it isn't metal pipe it doesn't need to be inspected for corrosion.

Curiosity alone WRT that second pipe would be enough for me to open the well and if there were a suction side leak, I would test the drop pipe first. The mystery of the presumed second checkvalve would also compel me to open the well.

Also, since you feel the need to have filters in-line, I would be curious about the condition of the well WRT silting in and would be making plans to purge it. Purging/surging could also increase the yeild.

As for the inconsistency of the symptoms, trying to dismiss a root cause based on the symptom is flawed troubleshooting. The large volume of air that you explained later in the thread could well be from the footvalve not being deep enough and the pump not drawing when no air is visible could be that there is air in the system that is not visible. There could also be two unrelated issues such as crud in the injector or a damaged pump from repeated overheating. Could also be crud on the footvalve that sometimes plugs it but later falls off only to get sucked up again.

LLigetfa said:

I figured it would be easy enough to ascertain simply by pulling up the drop pipe. Personally, I would have done that before digging up the yard. The buried stuff can simply be pressure tested and if it isn't metal pipe it doesn't need to be inspected for corrosion.

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It's all PVC, and pulling the drop pipe would require cutting two joints; reinstalling would require gluing a new elbow, and bridging the few inches of the feed that was cut out.

Curiosity alone WRT that second pipe would be enough for me to open the well and if there were a suction side leak, I would test the drop pipe first.

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It's just for sanitization; the well-servicer confirmed that assumption yesterday.

The mystery of the presumed second checkvalve would also compel me to open the well.

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Already found it. The well-servicer claims they generally run one every 50' or so...I suspect there may be one more, but whether it is in the yard or under the foundation is unknown.

Also, since you feel the need to have filters in-line, I would be curious about the condition of the well WRT silting in and would be making plans to purge it. Purging/surging could also increase the yeild.

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The "need" may be irrational, as this is my first rodeo. My pump ran hot again this morning and the threaded PVC fitting into the pump deformed and blew out. I'm taking the Texas Wellman's advice and removing the filters in between the pump and the tank; I'm dropping the height of the pump below the inlet of the tank in the hope that any air sucked up will more easily enter the tank, instead of accumulating in the filter housings.

JVance said:

It's all PVC, and pulling the drop pipe would require cutting two joints; reinstalling would require gluing a new elbow, and bridging the few inches of the feed that was cut out.

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Trivial. I would install a union to make future removal much simpler.

JVance said:

Already found it. The well-servicer claims they generally run one every 50' or so...I suspect there may be one more, but whether it is in the yard or under the foundation is unknown.

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Read the sticky at the top of this forum. Your wellman is old school and his thinking should be challenged.

JVance said:

I'm dropping the height of the pump below the inlet of the tank in the hope that any air sucked up will more easily enter the tank, instead of accumulating in the filter housings.

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The laws of gravity have not changed since Newton's time and that is how the pump should have been installed from day one. Again, the credibility of the wellman/pumpman is brought into question for that alone, let alone the choice of using PVC that melts down.

LLigetfa said:

The laws of gravity have not changed since Newton's time and that is how the pump should have been installed from day one. Again, the credibility of the wellman/pumpman is brought into question for that alone, let alone the choice of using PVC that melts down.

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The laws of gravity? How about you cut the smarter-than-thou attitude. Many shallow well jet pumps are installed above the inlet of their pressure tanks.

And FYI, I installed the pump. There was no pump when I bought the house. I installed it at a height similar to my neighbor's as a sufficient precaution against being damaged by flooding (step away from wiki-physics for a second and brush up on your geography ). I'm using the existing PVC that was plumbed into the slab. If the pump body is getting hot enough to deform the threads of my PVC fitting (as well as PVC 6" upstream of the pump), a stretch of metal pipe and it's minimal surface area isn't going to dissipate enough heat (wiki heat flux, go learn something) to prevent it from deforming whatever PVC fitting it would be connected to.

Whether I inherited the problem or I've created it, I'm trying to fix it. I've grown tired of discussing this with you; what do you have to offer besides parroted responses and baseless attacks against people you don't know? I'm sure you're well aware of the old adage about assumptions; go troll some other thread.

JVance said:

I'm sure you're well aware of the old adage about assumptions; go troll some other thread.

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Assumptions are all I have to go on since you are in control of what facts you choose to divulge and what preconceived notions you decide to present as fact.

You came here with the preconceived notion that all you needed was some throttling device. When Texas Wellman suggested you install a throttle valve, you replied that you would go shopping. Now he did not elaborate but some folk will throttle with a ballvalve which you already have so I'm not sure what you went to buy.

I proposed that you lower the footvalve and raise the pressure to dynamically throttle your pump but you you only made some comment about the footvalve being low enough without even knowing how low it is. Then you deferred to the professionals...

You tar me for challenging old school thinking and defend the professional, based on what? How well it's working for you?

You hurl the first real insult with your "arrogance" comment and now follow up with "smarter-than-thou" and "troll"? I think you know not the meaning of troll.

You are here to get something. I am here to to get something and to give something back and maybe have a bit of fun while I'm at it. If you cannot take a little bit of colourful writing in stride, too bad, so sad. I still do wish you well.

I met with the wellman this afternoon. He claims the drop pipe has no foot valve; the check valve that is outside of the well head prevents the well from losing its prime. The drop pipe is 3/4", which runs within the 1 1/4" casing down to about 34'. The "2nd pipe" tees into that 1 1/4" casing for sanitizing.

How is air getting to the pump? His explanation was that it was simply the nature of the sandy, shallow wells on this island...gases dissolved in the water coming out of solution under vacuum, and remaining gaseous after hitting the impeller of the pump. Maybe the "amount" of air I thought was moving through the pump was exaggerated by it collecting in the filter housings?

I suppose if there was a leak in the drop-pipe allowing air in, the well would lose its prime if there was no foot valve; I'm not in a position to confirm whether the wellman's information is true or not. There could be a leak elsewhere, but if so, it may be separated from the pump/tank by a 2nd check-valve, as the tank does not lose water/pressure...I haven't yet found another check-valve. Or, the air is just a characteristic of this well, as the wellman suggested? Any sandy, shallow, low-yield well folks with this experience?

Texas Wellman, the filters between the pump and tank have been removed.

JVance said:

I am trying to troubleshoot some issues with the well in our new house

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If it is a new House, New Water Well, It seems to me that it would be better to have the original driller fix the problem.

Just my observation...


Did Texas Wellman® do Your work ?
I doubt it, or it would be working properly...

JVance said:

...gases dissolved in the water coming out of solution under vacuum, and remaining gaseous after hitting the impeller of the pump.

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That is the quintessential definition of pump cavitation but I've never heard of it displacing a quart of water in a filter the way you described it. All this air that is going through the system has to go somewhere. Does it spit out of the faucets or does it reamalgamate into the water?

As for what it takes for a pump to lose its prime, that varies. Given the description of the drop pipe, the air that was in it at various times of the well's existance had to be removed by the pump without the pump losing its prime using perhaps as little as a gallon of water to start. Perhaps the pump being the high point means the water prime falls away by gravity.

Did the wellman pull the drop pipe to confirm the depth or are you relying on his recollection?

DonL said:

If it is a new House, It seems to me that it would be better to have the original driller fix the problem.

Just my observation...

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I agree, and that's why I met with him this afternoon.

All he did was drill the well and do the original hook-ups with the contractor-provided pump and tank. The house sat vacant for 3 years since it was finished and the original pump was stolen. I installed the new pump and replumbed the pump and tank thinking I researched enough about what to do, but I clearly didn't; nor did I know what to expect (well, not this...) since I've only recently discovered this particular well's rated yield.

JVance said:

I agree, and that's why I met with him this afternoon.

All he did was drill the well and do the original hook-ups with the contractor-provided pump and tank. The house sat vacant for 3 years since it was finished and the original pump was stolen. I installed the new pump and replumbed the pump and tank thinking I researched enough about what to do, but I clearly didn't; nor did I know what to expect (well, not this...) since I've only recently discovered this particular well's rated yield.

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I understand, The house is new to You.

How much does he want to Fix it ?

LLigetfa said:

That is the quintessential definition of pump cavitation but I've never heard of it displacing a quart of water in a filter the way you described it.

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That's why I'm not entirely sure if its collection in the filters skewed my estimation of how much air was moving through...possibly the air was moving back and forth between the filters and the pump (as the pump drew water in from the well)? The wellman certainly believes the filters were contributing to the overheating: the air trapped in the filters prevented backflow of water from the tank, leaving the impeller uncovered. That *sounds* reasonable to me...of course, that doesn't make it true.

All this air that is going through the system has to go somewhere. Does it spit out of the faucets or does it reamalgamate into the water?

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I'm assuming it would collect in the tank...

As for what it takes for a pump to lose its prime, that varies. Given the description of the drop pipe, the air that was in it at various times of the well's existance had to be removed by the pump without the pump losing its prime using perhaps as little as a gallon of water to start. Perhaps the pump being the high point means the water prime falls away by gravity.

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I don't know...what I do know is that when I replumbed the pump, the water level in the stub was at the level of the concrete in the garage, maybe 18" above the top of the well. The check-valve at the well-head managed to hold that for ~3 years of zero activity. After priming the pump for the first time, it drew water without too much excitement.

Did the wellman pull the drop pipe to confirm the depth or are you relying on his recollection?

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Nope, he was relying on his recollection and data they had for this well...so, maybe that's as good as nothing at all.

DonL said:

I understand, The house is new to You.

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It's new in that I am the first owner of the house, the first user of the well.

How much does he want to Fix it ?

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He doesn't believe the well is broken. He does believe it is a low-producing well (5 gpm was its original rating in 2008), and he believes its producing even less under our drought conditions. We've discussed options if we cannot manage living with its current output, but aside from confirming what Texas Wellman already said about plumbing the filters between the pump and tank (which I have fixed), he confirmed the system has been returned to the way it was set-up when they finished the job 3 years ago.

What You need is a ShotGun and An Alarm system.

If People go around steeling pumps in Your Neighborhood.

Them kind of people last about 1 Minute around here.

DonL said:

If People go around steeling pumps in Your Neighborhood.

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It was the typical meth-fueled scavenging that occurred following the housing crash. Houston and every other city in America had their share of it.

Since removing the filters between the pump and the tank, the pump has not run hot. You can still hear water ebb and surge through the pump, but it has shown no problem hitting 50 psi. So, I'm eating crow from my second post...the location of the filters was a problem and, at the very least, was contributing to my pump overheating, cavitating, and building up steam which lead to PVC failures. I don't know if I'm still pumping up an appreciable volume of air, or if the level of the water table is near the limit to draw the water...the pump is handling it (for now) and not showing signs that its going to melt down (for now).

JVance said:

I don't know if I'm still pumping up an appreciable volume of air, or if the level of the water table is near the limit to draw the water...

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Partially close the ballvalve between the pump and the tank to throttle the pump. If there is air in the stream, you will feel and hear it going through the constriction.

Unless you have a hydropnuematic tank with AVC, all the air that enters the tank must at some point leave the tank and present as spitting and surging at the point of use.

LLigetfa said:

Partially close the ballvalve between the pump and the tank to throttle the pump. If there is air in the stream, you will feel and hear it going through the constriction.

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Will do.

Unless you have a hydropnuematic tank with AVC, all the air that enters the tank must at some point leave the tank and present as spitting and surging at the point of use.

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My 120 gallon tank is bladderless with an air control valve.

Such a large storage tank is seen as large draw on a marginally producing well. Some theorize that more storage is better, but it turns into a case of feast and famine. The huge load on the well to refill the tank lowers the water level in and around the well.

You might want to try raising both the kick-in and kick-out pressure settings on the pump to reduce the amount you draw in one cycle. A Cycle Stop Valve could also act to throttle the draw to match consumption and limit some of the refill rate on that big tank, reducing the number of cycles at the same time.