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Thread: which waterproofing system for new shower?

  1. #31
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Default Proper Backer Boards for showers in Pittsburgh, PA

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    Last edited by johnfrwhipple; 03-17-2014 at 04:34 AM.


    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

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  2. #32
    In the Trades mtcummins's Avatar
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    JW, why don't you try reading sometime, rather than just responding with crap.

    http://www.schluter.com/media/ShowerHandbook.pdf

    NOTE: this is the SHOWER, let me repeat, SHOWER installation handbook from your reps that are on all your boards. One more time, this installation manual is for installing SHOWERS, not backsplashes, or whatever else you're claiming w/o any basis. Look at page 2, then look at page 5, then how about page 7, oh, then there it is again on page 9. Oh wait, not done yet, there it is again on page 11. Then there are the pictures on page 12, 14, 15, 17, 19. There's probably a lot more, but I'm already tired of being right.

    I will note one more thing... Read page 19. It specifically talks about protecting gypsum board in a wet zone with kerdi. Hmm... that doesn't sound like the bull crap you've been saying on here...

  3. #33
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Default Kerdi does wick water as you can clearly see in these pictures

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    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  4. #34
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    ICC-Evaluation report ESR-2467 was Re-issued August 1, 2011 (and valid for two years). In this, they state Kerdi and Ditra are approved waterproof membranes, and Kerdi in a shower construction is specified for use over various backing materials.

    In it, it specifically states gypsum board (drywall) as one of the backing surfaces IN A SHOWER as required in IRC Section P2709.2 and IPC Section 417.5.2 when installed per the manufacturer's installation handbook.

    Kerdi and seamed Ditra must use an unmodified to seam the materials to prevent latex problems (wetting). Any membrane can leak if you poke holes in it.

    I'm checking on Canadian approvals/restrictions, but that is taking me a bit. Local codes may trump national ones, but in the USA, the IPC testing and approvals exist for Kerdi in a shower over gypsum board (drywall).
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  5. #35
    In the Trades mtcummins's Avatar
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    JW, is it gonna take you 10 years to realize/admit that you are wrong, like it took you 10 years of installing Schluter products to realize that they were "junk"? Just admit it already, you're wrong. That doesn't mean you have to like the practice of installing Kerdi on drywall, or advocate it, but stop making up code restrictions that don't exist, telling us that Schluter does not approve of kerdi on drywall in a shower, and all the other bull crap that you spout off.

    If you actually want to make a difference like you claim, you should stop being a subborn jack***, admit that you were wrong about this issue, and then still explain that you don't think it is good practice and that you think people should not do it for REAL REASONS, not b/c of some obscure code references that don't actually support exactly what you're saying. The way you've acted on this issue, I'll never listen to what you say again w/o questioning it extensively, and getting confirmation from guys like Jim that what you are claiming is actually correct. You will never make a positive difference like you claim to want to by being a dick.

  6. #36
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Default Checking with Building Departments and Building Bureaus first before selecting backer

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    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  7. #37
    In the Trades mtcummins's Avatar
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    You have a very convenient habit of ignoring every code citation that someone makes that proves you wrong. Hmm... funny how you can be "right" when you ignore any evidence to the contrary...

    You have fun with your little mission. I don't believe that you will do anything properly even in that, so your results will be as meaningless as the obscure code references you like to make. Sure, if you call my inspector and ask if drywall is an acceptable tile substrate in a shower, he's doing to say no. B/c of course it's not. Just like your code references, it isn't an acceptable tile substrate. People used to tile greenboard for a tub surround... thats crazy, and against code. All the bullcrap references you've made to code just state that obvious restriction.

    If people want to pay for cement board, i never said anything was wrong with that. I think it is probably a better installation. I never said anything to the contrary. What I did say is that you're full of crap in your statements that it can't be done over drywall.

  8. #38
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Default Can dry wall be used in a shower - Does the TTMAC ANSI approved it?

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    Last edited by johnfrwhipple; 03-17-2014 at 04:34 AM.


    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  9. #39
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    John, I don't know if you can't or won't read...the report from a national testing agency states Kerdi and Ditra are waterproof, and lists the associated build approvals. The test had them build a structure, using the manufacturer's instructions, and then flood test it. Drywall is listed as an acceptable backing material IN A SHOWER (although they state it as gypsum board in the document, same thing). If you can't or won't believe the IPC certification, that's okay with me, but when you continue to state that it doesn't work and isn't approved, you're totally off base. From what I've heard, you've been banned from multiple websites for your continued knocking down of products. It's one thing to state you prefer a different brand, but it's another to state a product with approvals is bogus.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  10. #40
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Default Is Dry Wall allowed in Boston as a backer board?

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    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  11. #41
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    What you seem to be missing is that independent testing agencies have tested and approved Kerdi for use over drywall in a shower. The IPC being one of them. TCNA another.

    Kerdi is NOT approved for installation over wood, never was, never will be, so, if you want a curb out of wood, you sheath it in drywall or one of the other acceptable backing materials as listed in the testing spec and approval, or, build it out of something else.

    Directly from the ICC Evaluation Service Report ESR-2467, Section 2.0, it lists the specific approvals. I could not cut this and paste, so I'm retying it:
    "KERDI is also used as a shower lining, as required in IRC Section P2709.2 and IPC Section 417.5.2 over concrete, mortar, tile backerboard, expanded polystyrene foam board, prefabricated polystyrene shower trays, curb and ramps, gypsum board and masonry substrates."

    In section 4.0 INSTALLATION, it says the following:

    " Installation of Schluter (tm) - KERDI, Schluter (tm) - DITRA and Schluter (tm) - DITRA XL membranes and accessories must comply with this report and the manufactuer's published installation instructions."

    The manufacturer's instructions show and list the same backer materials as above from Section 2.0. The TCNA guideline that also was tested and approved was referenced earlier and is listed explicity as an approved method. Now, my copy of the spec is a little older, but there have not been changes in that approval. It clearly shows gypsum board (aka drywall) as the backer in the construction detail as an approved shower construction method.

    Both Kerdi seams and Kerdiboard edges MUST be sealed with the specified overlap of seaming material, either Kerdi, Kerdiband, or KerdiFix, otherwise, it is not a waterproof ASSEMBLY. You stick a piece of cbu in a waterbath, and it will wick water just as easily as Kerdi until it is either sealed on the surface or otherwise installed per an approved method. Just setting it in water has nothing to do with whether it is waterproof when installed properly.

    The approval page from the State of Massachusetts http://license.reg.state.ma.us/pubLi...kerdi&psize=50
    Last edited by jadnashua; 12-14-2011 at 01:09 PM. Reason: added MA approval listing link.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  12. #42
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Default Schluter's requirements for Gypsum Backer Boards - do they include corner beads?

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    Last edited by johnfrwhipple; 03-17-2014 at 04:34 AM.


    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

  13. #43
    In the Trades mtcummins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnfrwhipple View Post
    What level of drywall finish is spec'd Jim?

    Just board.

    Board and metal corner bead.

    Board, tape, finish mud.

    Board, tape, finish mud, priming?

    Pretty grey area.

    JW
    But what isn't grey is the fact that you've been spouting bull crap all this time. That's pretty black and white.

    What do you use when doing cbu? Just board? do you fill the seams? use mesh? cover screw holes? corners? clean the surface? Pretty grey area JW.

    I don't finish drywall when using it behind waterproofing. I'll fill the voids with thinset if anything. When I'm feeling particularly fussy, I'll plan it out so that the kerdi overlap falls into the seam between boards, so that there's no build-up from the overlapping. But that doesn't work out as often with drywall as with cbu, as the widths don't line up as neatly.

  14. #44
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    I know I read it somewhere about prepping the drywall before installation of Kerdi. You don't need drywall mud or mesh tape...the Kerdi is far stronger than the tape anyway. If your taper portion of the drywall is to be covered with Kerdi, you can either fill it with thinset and immediately install the Kerdi, or fill it flush, let it cure a bit, then install the Kerdi on the now flat plane as it it wasn't there. In some orientations, the taper will help avoid the small buildup in the changes of plane - far easier than with the much thicker membranes.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  15. #45
    ACO Shower Drain Sales johnfrwhipple's Avatar
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    Default Does Drywall (Gypsum) have any place in a shower renovation?

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    jfrwhipple@gmail.com - www-no-curb.com - 604 506 6792

    Always get construction advice double checked by your local city hall. Flood Test Every Shower - Every Time.

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