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Thread: Retrofit a 1.28 Toto Guinevere to 1.6+?

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    DIY Junior Member Marc remodel's Avatar
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    Default Retrofit a 1.28 Toto Guinevere to 1.6+?

    Hi. I have had good luck (as a consumer) with the 1.6 Totos in the past, and even better luck when I switched out the flapper and extended that white filler tube to get more water per flush. Now I'm replacing a few toilets, and I like the styling of the Guivevere. The 1.28 seems to get good reviews for the double cyclone, but the sales people still seem to prefer the 1.6 (the one without the double cyclone, I believe) to the 1.28 (with DC). My question is whether I can have the best of both worlds--1.6 and double cyclone)? Can I accomplish that by making that white filler tube taller with a PVC extension, and if so, would I also need to replace the filler valve and/or the flapper? Is there an easier way to accomplish this? Thanks very much for all the great input. Take care.

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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    I think, all you have to do is replace the flapper valve...but, I'd try it, I think you'll like it as it is. All tanks hold more water than gets used in the flush (at least the modern ones now sold). They use this extra height to give more power to the flush...height means the water falls further, thus more oomph.
    Jim DeBruycker
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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    The Guinevere One-Piece toilet has always been Double Cyclone. The whites come standard with Sanagloss. When they first came out, they weren't marketing it yet as a 1.28
    I think you will find that there is little difference between the 1.60 and 1.28 Guinevere. It's been a few years since I've had a 1.6 to sell.
    If you want a little more water, you can always hold the handle a smidge longer.

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    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    If you want a little more water, you can always hold the handle a smidge longer.
    Does that work??? Down here, for a toilet to qualify with the water authority for a rebate, the design has to be such that holding the handle down does NOT overide the specified flush.

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    I'm just looking at the stuff I'm selling here.
    I've sold many, many 1.28 bowls here though. I wonder where those "salesmen" are finding a model that old though to still be acting like it's an option?
    I guess they don't install them like we do.

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    DIY Junior Member Marc remodel's Avatar
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    Thanks Terry for the answers and the awesome forum. A few follow-on questions:

    1. The Guinevere trip lever seems to hang at the 6:00 position (going to 3:00 to flush?), but the toilets I've had in the past all had the trip lever at the 3:00 position (going to 6:00 to flush). Is that changeable on the Guinevere?

    2. Is the trip lever available in bronze? I see it in other finishes on-line, but not ORB. Probably just not looking in the right place.

    3. Is that overfill valve the same in the 1.28 and the 1.6, with the 1.28 just not filling up as much, or is that tube physically shorter? Said another way, what's the difference in construction between the 1.28 and the 1.6 Guineveres?

    Thanks again for the great resource.

    Take care,
    Marc

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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Since none of the new toilets empty the tank, it is not the amount of water in there that determines the flush volume, it is the timing of when the flapper valve closes...i.e., there is always some water left in the tank; the flush valve has nothing to do with it - it needs that extra height of the excess water to give it the power to provide a flush and is NOT dumped. So, to get more water dumped, you either hold the handle down longer than just a momentary press, or change the flapper valve to stay open longer. They do that with either weights, floats, or calibrated holes, depending on the design. that being said, you are overthinking this, and in a well designed toilet, it will work with the amount it was designed for.

    On any new toilet, if you hold the handle until the tank is empty, you'd probably be using in the order of 3-4 gallons; a total waste.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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    DIY Junior Member Marc remodel's Avatar
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    Thanks. I'll investigate a slower flapper. That said, my experience with even the well-rated 1.6 toilets is that they perform marginally compared to the old-fashioned ones, and do their job completely and adequately maybe 2/3 of the time. Good but not great.

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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Have you had any experience with the Toto brand? Try it, then decide if you need it (highly unlikely). By no means are all brands equal. The older, big flow toilets do do a better job of cleaning the bowl, (but the double cyclone on the Toto works quite well thank you) because they used 2-5x more water. But, as to evacuating the thing of waste, a good one works as designed. Diet makes the biggest determination as to whether you get skid marks in the first place.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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    DIY Junior Member Marc remodel's Avatar
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    Thanks again for the quick reply. Yep, been buying the Totos for the past ten years, although that was only the last home we built before this new-home renovation, with seven toilets. As I said, they work good but not great. Must be my diet, or I'm just old fashioned. The best-functioning one we have is a Toto one piece where I used a small PVC extension to get that tube higher, adjusted the water fill height and changed out the flapper. It seems to use more water and the water also seems to come out more forcefully, perhaps because of the volume in the tank. So at least in our household some modification seems necessary, but the double cyclone seems like a great improvement. Based on your earlier reply that all the water consumption is essentially just a function of the flapper, it sounds like that must mean the only difference in the Guinevere 1.28 and 1.6 is the flapper (since they apparently both have the double cyclone). That's crazy to think of all the hype, marketing materials, etc. to roll out new models that just have a different $6 part! But good for me, since it makes turbocharging it easier. Thanks.

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    I have the Drake II and the Vespin II installed right now at 1.28
    I hear the questions, but really the 1.28 has been working for years.

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