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Thread: Efficiency

  1. #16
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Pyrolox can only remove 10 mg/l of iron. How much iron are you dealing with?

    You loose between 10 and 15% of the media a year so how long since the unit has been serviced?

    Pyrolox needs to be backwashed daily or eveningly

    Chlorination helps the efficiency of Pyrolox so you might want to consider chlorine injection

    Having water test results would help. Both before and after filtration
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  2. #17
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    12 year old iron filter rebedded two years ago. New pump this year to improve pressure/GPM/aeration/backwash. Don't recall the numbers from the water tests but lots of iron. A pail of unfiltered water left overnight looks like I mopped up a slaughterhouse. Water let to sit after filtration stays clear yet get iron stains on the grout. RO pre-filters discolour. Using RO water in my coffeemaker, there is a stained high water mark. My water guy says it can only do so much.

  3. #18
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Your water guy is probably right. We have bad iron here as well and sometimes it's just so bad that the cost of treatment is beyond the ability to pay for and maintain it.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  4. #19
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wally107 View Post
    For those of us just getting started, please point them out, so we get the straight skinny.

    And I said "must read"...not 'only' read.
    Yes it's a good article and proves what I've been saying for years while many have disagreed with me anywhere I've gotten into salt efficiency.

    The article says: "When all available exchange sites are converted from sodium to hardness, the softener is exhausted and needs to be regenerated.". In the context of salt efficiency you never allow all the resin to be exhausted, nor do you ever allow all of the K of capacity you programed the softener for to be totally exhausted, nor any softener to get to total bed exhaustion.

    The article says: "Regeneration is achieved by exposing the ion exchange resin to a brine solution. Sodium chloride is typically used, although potassium chloride may also be used. (We will focus on sodium chloride solutions although the same process takes place when a potassium chloride brine solution is used.)". Without mentioning that usually the use of potassium chloride, and especially when using high salt efficiency settings, you must use more potassium, up to 30% more at times because potassium is not as efficient as sodium chloride because all (residential) softening resin is made in the sodium form, there are no potassium form resins.

    The article says: "The hardness ions removed from the resin, along with some excess sodium and chloride ions, are sent to the drain.". Making it look as if some of the chloride ions are not sent to drain. All chloride ions are sent to drain because none are used to remove hardness etc., only some of the sodium or potassium ions are used to removed hardness, iron, manganese etc. from the resin.

    The article says: "There are many ways to optimize the brine and water efficiency of a softener system through system design and operation. Factors affecting brine efficiency include salt dose, brine flow rate, brine flow direction, reserve setting, and others as discussed in this paper.". Actually for salt efficiency, there is only one way, that is to calculate only the K of capacity needed between regenerations and then use the amount of salt required to regenerate that K of capacity using a salt efficiency setting to do it. That does not require changes to the injector etc. because they are dictated by the volume and type of resin being used and the type of regeneration; upflow (counter current) or the normal softener configuration, down flow (co-current) regeneration. IMO attempting to achieve water efficiency by micro managing with injectors etc. is above most if not all dealers' abilities and certainly their customers' ability. I achieved water efficiency by not using factory default timed settings for the various cycle positions of a regeneration. I shortened them.That was based on the size of the softener and especially the raw water quality.

    The article uses a 1.0 cuft softener as an example and does not get into using a larger softener and a high salt efficiency setting.

    The article says: "Variable reserve..... This system increases and decreases the reserve capacity as required, helping to avoid both wasting salt and running out of soft water by optimizing reserve capacity.". I disagree with the "wasting salt" part due to having a 24 hr reserve capacity. That's like saying the gas left in the tank when you refuel is wasted. Variable reserve prevents running out of soft water before a regeneration and IMO has nothing to do with saving salt unless it is the salt used to regenerate resin fully after exhausting the bed, which is 2 manual regenerations at the maximum salt dose of 15lbs/cuft of resin. That is truly wasted salt becasue the softener was not sized correctly or programmed correctly.

    The article says: "The optimal solution is a twin tank system which provides continuous soft water yet only regenerates when the softener capacity is fully used. In a twin tank system, one tank is online and producing soft water while the other one is regenerated and then waits offline, fully regenerated. When online tank capacity is reached, the offline tank is brought online and the depleted tank is taken offline and regenerated. Because regeneration can occur as soon as the capacity of the system is met, no reserve is required.". They do not mention that twins are set up for the same salt efficiency as the same size two tank softener and... to regenerate one tank of a twin tank type softener, they use capacity to do that and that requires salt use and... you lose SFR when a tank is regenerated while you are using water or use water during its regeneration. Also, they make it sound as if you have 30K/cuft of resin and you don't because that is the poorest salt efficiency. So the programmed capacity is used based on a number of gallons used but, a regeneration of one tank uses capacity which uses salt as a regular softener uses salt to create a reserve.

    I haven't listed all the things I see as needed to be said or clarified to improve the accuracy of the article. One is upflow counter current brining and their statements. IMO upflow should only be used in commercial/industrial applications where less than 1 gpg of hardness breakthrough (leakage) is required. Any regular industry standard down flow co-current regenerated softener can keep hardness leakage to under 1 gpg if it is sized correctly for the peak demand of the household and salt efficiency.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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  5. #20
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    What the hell does it matter? The information there is valid and useful. When you spend your life nit picking what do you end up with other than a basket full of nits?
    It matters when you say it was from Pentair that has Fleck, that makes softener control valves, and it wasn't from Pentair.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  6. #21
    DIY Member rjh2o's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    12 year old iron filter rebedded two years ago. New pump this year to improve pressure/GPM/aeration/backwash. Don't recall the numbers from the water tests but lots of iron. A pail of unfiltered water left overnight looks like I mopped up a slaughterhouse. Water let to sit after filtration stays clear yet get iron stains on the grout. RO pre-filters discolour. Using RO water in my coffeemaker, there is a stained high water mark. My water guy says it can only do so much.
    When an in-line micronizer is used oxidized iron precipitates out in the well tank and clogs the lines from well tank up to the precip tank and frequently inside the backwashing valve itself. Mud-balls occur in the precip tank causing precipitants to build up in tank. The ferric iron bleed may be due to pressure loss in the aforementioned areas. These systems need to backwash every day. I would suggest taking out the micronizer and install an air pump to inject air directly to precip tank.

    RJ

  7. #22
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjh2o View Post
    These systems need to backwash every day.
    I've been told by more than one person that a birm filter should not be backwashed too often, that a dirty filter is a tighter filter. The iron filter came with a 6 day clock which I changed out to a 7 day clock and backwash once a week.

    My old pump was worn from eating too much sand and so did not produce the GMP/pressure (20/40) for the micronizer to work well. It also did not provide enough GPM/pressure for a thorough backwash. The line between the precipitation tank was constricted as well reducing the GPM of backwash. After rebedding the filter, I snaked out the line. With the new pump, I think I am getting good aeration and backwash with 40/60 PSI.

    Every few months, I raise the pressure to 80 PSI and do a manual backwash to give the bed a good shakeup.

    As for the micronizer, I was hoping to connect an air pump to it and open up the bypass a little to allow more GPM through it. I have not been able to find an air pump at a reasonable price.

  8. #23
    DIY Member teve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Ok, I'll tell you what. Anybody here that it matters too, feel free to PM me or better yet just pipe up here instead. LOL
    I just found this web page that seems appropriate for this thread. It seems to give a fairly good overview of how softeners work and how to set them up. I haven't read it in detail and would not know how accurate it is, but it seems to give a lot of information. Perhaps others here can comment on it.

    http://www.wcponline.com/pdf/0304%20...20Softners.pdf

  9. #24
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    I think that article is much better than the other one.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #25
    DIY Junior Member Wally107's Avatar
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    Gary - just finished reading your critique of the paper. It's obvious you put a lot of thought into this, and it shows...and I appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    It matters when you say it was from Pentair that has Fleck, that makes softener control valves, and it wasn't from Pentair.
    Maybe just for possible clarification - I found the original White Paper:

    http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com...er%2042755.pdf

    Not 100% sure, but it does appear it is indeed from Pentair.

  11. #26
    DIY Junior Member Wally107's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teve View Post
    I just found this web page that seems appropriate for this thread. It seems to give a fairly good overview of how softeners work and how to set them up. I haven't read it in detail and would not know how accurate it is, but it seems to give a lot of information. Perhaps others here can comment on it.

    http://www.wcponline.com/pdf/0304%20...20Softners.pdf
    Another excellent article, with useful info for us novices. Thanx!

  12. #27
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wally107 View Post
    Gary - just finished reading your critique of the paper. It's obvious you put a lot of thought into this, and it shows...and I appreciate it.



    Maybe just for possible clarification - I found the original White Paper:

    http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com...er%2042755.pdf

    Not 100% sure, but it does appear it is indeed from Pentair.
    Articles like that usually come from a water treatment industry magazine and then are shared on various web sites. I think there are some minor differences in it but it's the same article in general and has the same short comings as the original.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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