(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 27

Thread: Efficiency

  1. #1
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    2,937

    Default Efficiency

    We talk about salt efficiency and water efficiency a lot on this forum. Nobody wants to spend more money than they have too, or negatively impact the environment either. In many areas of the country water use and conservation are big issues. Still, hard water is difficult to live with for a variety of reasons so folks install equipment to take care of their problems. There is a science to ion exchange treatment and though I could type half a book here I think that this link is a better place to start http://www.watertreatmentguide.com/a..._softening.htm

    After reading through that remember that true efficiency starts with reducing water use. Low flow shower heads. Flow restrictors on faucets and 1.6 lpf toilets all do their part in reducing water consumption. Remember that any softener is sized according to a formula that takes into account the number of users in the home and the average amount of water they use. ( except for easy water and zeta rod which only take into account how much money is in your bank account ) If we can reduce that consumption, we can use smaller equipment, less salt and less water. Habits also need to be changed. 20 minute showers times 3 people in the home can use as much as 300 gallons of water with 5gpm shower heads. Even with 2 gpm heads the use is still 120 gallons. One of the dumbest things the industry has ever pitched is these room sized showers with multiple heads and rain showers with lights and music. It's a shower. Get in and get out. Make sure hose bibs and irrigation equipment are not on the softener either. Americans tend to not like having to make lifestyle changes but the real key to efficiency is always going to be to reduce use as much as possible.
    Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 11-11-2011 at 06:44 AM.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  2. #2
    DIY Junior Member Wally107's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Dutchess County, NY
    Posts
    29

    Default

    Tom - well put.

    This guide is a "must read" for anyone new to the WWS (World of Water Softeners).

    Thanx.

  3. #3
    DIY Senior Member SteveW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Omaha, NE
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    We talk about salt efficiency and water efficiency a lot on this forum. Nobody wants to spend more money than they have too, or negatively impact the environment either. In many areas of the country water use and conservation are big issues. Still, hard water is difficult to live with for a variety of reasons so folks install equipment to take care of their problems. There is a science to ion exchange treatment and though I could type half a book here I think that this link is a better place to start http://www.watertreatmentguide.com/a..._softening.htm

    After reading through that remember that true efficiency starts with reducing water use. Low flow shower heads. Flow restrictors on faucets and 1.6 lpf toilets all do their part in reducing water consumption. Remember that any softener is sized according to a formula that takes into account the number of users in the home and the average amount of water they use. ( except for easy water and zeta rod which only take into account how much money is in your bank account ) If we can reduce that consumption, we can use smaller equipment, less salt and less water. Habits also need to be changed. 20 minute showers times 3 people in the home can use as much as 300 gallons of water with 5gpm shower heads. Even with 2 gpm heads the use is still 120 gallons. One of the dumbest things the industry has ever pitched is these room sized showers with multiple heads and rain showers with lights and music. It's a shower. Get in and get out. Make sure hose bibs and irrigation equipment are not on the softener either. Americans tend to not like having to make lifestyle changes but the real key to efficiency is always going to be to reduce use as much as possible.

    Tom - Excellent post!

    We seem to think clean water is an inexhaustible resource that we can squander without thinking about it, but it's not. I cringe every time a homeowner posts a question about how to plumb a multi-showerhead setup, usually with a gentle rain head on the ceiling.

    I love it - "It's a shower - get in and get out!"

  4. #4
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,676

    Default

    Nice read and thanks for posting it. I am no expert in the field, just a user and I still have questions. Let me preface that my softener has fixed timing via cams and no metering. In my quest to gain efficiency, I regen about half of the capacity. I have a separate birm iron filter.

    It has always puzzled me why the first backwash stage is as long as it is. The article says the first backwash cleans the resin bed but I fail to understand how. I can see where it shakes up the bed, expanding it into the freeboard area for the ion exchange that follows, but how can it clean with plain hard water? IMHO, it mostly squanders unused capacity by freeing sodium to the drain and exchanging it for hardness. It also wastes water.

  5. #5
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveW View Post
    We seem to think clean water is an inexhaustible resource...
    For some of us, it is. I'm not a civil libertarian but it irks me when uber conservative do-gooders try to tell me how to use the water. None of the water I use goes to waste. Mother nature recycles every drop of it.

  6. #6
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    2,937

    Default

    Ah.....no, not always. Before mankind started dumping things into the ground and the atmosphere the cycle of water pretty much did what you expect, but now thanks to airborne pollutants and ground pollutants water does not always get perfectly cleaned anymore. There are chemicals that nature can not handle. We are fortunate to live in areas with vast supplies of clean potable water. Maine sits on an aquifer that has been described as the Saudi Arabia of water but there are many other areas in the world that are not so fortunate. In years to come, clean water will become a major commodity world wide.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  7. #7
    DIY Senior Member SteveW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Omaha, NE
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    In my area, we have the Ogallala Aquifer. Due to irrigation, its level has been consistently dropping.

    We are next to the Missouri River, and folks here think there will never be a water shortage due to that.

  8. #8
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wherever I park the motorhome.
    Posts
    6,790

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wally107 View Post
    Tom - well put.

    This guide is a "must read" for anyone new to the WWS (World of Water Softeners).

    Thanx.
    There are a few errors in that article and no mention of larger than a 1.0 cuft softener.

    And remember that it is only dealing with efficiencies but for correct sizing, you must also get into the peak demand gpm of the household and the softener's constant service flow rating (SFR).
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #9
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    2,937

    Default

    Did anybody here expect anything else? LOL
    The article is direct data from Pentair, but what would they know about water treatment LOL
    Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 11-13-2011 at 05:28 AM.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  10. #10
    DIY Junior Member Wally107's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Dutchess County, NY
    Posts
    29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    There are a few errors in that article...
    For those of us just getting started, please point them out, so we get the straight skinny.

    And I said "must read"...not 'only' read.
    Last edited by Wally107; 11-13-2011 at 05:33 AM.

  11. #11
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wherever I park the motorhome.
    Posts
    6,790

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Did anybody here expect anything else? LOL
    The article is direct data from Pentair, but what would they know about water treatment LOL
    I think you are confused.The Watertreatment Guide is done by Applied Membranes. You can see that at your link.

    I can't find any mention of Applied Membranes at Pentair's web site so where do you find a link between the two? Applied Membranes is an old RO company. Do you have a link showing they are part of Pentair?

    BTW, Pentair is nothing more than a holding company that over the past 15-20 years has bought many water related companies, and to my knowledge, they do not manufacture anything.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  12. #12
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    2,937

    Default

    What the hell does it matter? The information there is valid and useful. When you spend your life nit picking what do you end up with other than a basket full of nits?
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  13. #13
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ocala, Florida
    Posts
    663

    Default

    Thank you Tom. That article was very educational to some of us. The testing to achieve the results had to take hours even though some will say that their are unsubstantiated errors, but not list any. Please share any article that will educate, no matter who wrote it or presented it.

  14. #14
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    2,937

    Default

    Not only that page but if you start clicking links there is a wealth of REAL and documented information there from RO to UV and most of the new technologies. There is a very good article of Pyrolox also

    I'm here to pass along knowledge and I don't give a damn who's feelings get hurt.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  15. #15
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    There is a very good article of Pyrolox also...
    Ja, I read it but still don't understand how it works. I have an iron filter with a micronizer, precipitation tank, and from what my water guy tells me, pumicite media. I know it removes lots of iron based on what comes out during the backwash but still get a little iron fouling of my softener resin and iron staining of my white tile grout. Would rebedding with Pyrolox be an option and would I have to change the backwash flow rate?

Similar Threads

  1. 95% efficiency unit vs 80% efficiency unit
    By northeastguy78 in forum HVAC Heating & Cooling
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 02-01-2011, 10:49 AM
  2. efficiency in this application
    By Thatguy in forum HVAC Heating & Cooling
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 12-26-2009, 09:29 AM
  3. efficiency puzzle
    By dstrutto in forum Boiler Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-04-2009, 09:56 AM
  4. The cost of efficiency
    By bmccabe in forum Remodel Forum & Blog
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 07-02-2008, 05:16 PM
  5. Furnace Efficiency
    By Lakee911 in forum Remodel Forum & Blog
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-13-2005, 05:08 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •