Salt dose...?

[Gary Slusser]

Wally, use what is the norm and you can't go wrong... or become a softener engineer.

mialynett.... My experience with most national brand dealers and their sales force is that they are like shyster lawyers and used car salesmen. It's all about the money and they over charge for undersized equipment.

If you don't want to size for the peak demand of the household's water use, don't, but don't say it shouldn't be done when all resin manufacturers and their distributors publish data so delaers can size correctly.

BTW, I've already explained how your 1.0 is not allowing breakthrough yet.

And yes, I know you know it all but for one thing, you don't know what you don't know.

If you want to find undersized equipment, ask your prospective customer, service and new equipment types both, if they can say their present softener has always given them 0 grains/gal soft water and see if they don't tell you "no, there are times we get hard water". Then see if you can figure out why that is if not due to exceeding the constant SFR of their softener.

As to the 6lbs for a 1.0 cuft... man it's adjustable down as far as the control valve you are using will allow you to go; salt efficiency doesn't stop at 6 lbs/cuft.

[Wally107]

As you know, I've been emailing back and forth with Wayne at Fleck regarding BLFC, etc. In my last email, I asked for his overall programming recommendations. Thought I'd share his reply - not for any particular reason, I guess for the group's discussion (his replys in italics):
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System: 7000SXT 64K 2 cuft resin.

64K is at max salt dosage, not efficient. 64K is a 12" tank
salting at 18lbs per cuft. You have 2 cuft.


Use: 300 gals per day X 14gpg hardness = 4200 grains per day
Would like to regen every 8 days (Day Override)...4200 grains X 8 days = 33600 to be regen'd.

I would normally add 1 day for reserve (33600 + 4200 = 37800)

Assuming: 3 lbs salt regenerates 10000,

General thought that 3,333 grains per lb of salt.

this would require 11.5 lbs of salt (which is good)
Assuming: 1 gal water dissolves 3 lbs salt, and 8 mins per gal = 31 min BF

I would use a grain setting of 48,000 which is at 8lbs per cuft salting.
16lbs total. That needs 5.3 gallons of water in the brine tank.

My questions (finally):

1. If I use Reserve Selection of Variable Reserve (cr)...does that change my programming?

No

2. (ref my previous email) Is there any advantage to me to change my Control Type from Meter Delayed (fd) to Variable Fill (fdPb)??

No

3. Overall, if possible, can you recommend my settings for:
Control Type (CT) Fd
Reserve Selection (RS) I would use rc fixed reserve.
Times for
B1, 10min
BD, 60min
B2, 5min
RR, 5min
BF? 42 min 43min x .125gpm = 5.3 gallons

Program capacity at 48,000 grains.
Set rc to 300gallons

[Tom Sawyer]

Since you have already bought and installed the equipment it's too late to go back but... in your first post you say that you may hit 11gpm or perhaps 13gpm from time to time so the question is, are you sure the piping and incoming water pressure in your house will allow those flow rates? Just because you may have x number of fixtures does not necessarily mean that they are capable of flowing at the fixtures maximum rate, especially if two or more are flowing at the same time. A whole lot of folks buy over sized filtration equipment with 1" or larger inlets and install them on systems that are not capable of matching the SFR. However as to your last post, IMO his numbers are good all things being equal.

[mialynette2003]

Wally, When I read your post earlier you memtioned about not changing the BLFC from the .125 you currently have in it to a .5. Now I don't see it. What happened?

[Wally107]

Since you have already bought and installed the equipment it's too late to go back but... in your first post you say that you may hit 11gpm or perhaps 13gpm from time to time so the question is, are you sure the piping and incoming water pressure in your house will allow those flow rates? Just because you may have x number of fixtures does not necessarily mean that they are capable of flowing at the fixtures maximum rate, especially if two or more are flowing at the same time. A whole lot of folks buy over sized filtration equipment with 1" or larger inlets and install them on systems that are not capable of matching the SFR. However as to your last post, IMO his numbers are good all things being equal.

Tom - I think you make a valid point...2 showers and a washer flowing simultaneously may not flow 2.5, 2.5, and 6 gpm. I would think it would depend on your service volume/pressure, and the size/condition of your plumbing. However, our house is fairly new (built 2005), so the plumbing is all in pretty good shape, and we've got gobs of volume and pressure. I know for sure we've had 2 showers and the washing machine going at the same time, with no discernible drop in either.

All I (or anyone) can really do is either manually check each fixture with a gallon jug and a stopwatch (although I will admit, I did them one at a time - which is what I think you're getting at), or use the UPC wsfu ratings (which I also did).

Once I decided (for right or wrong) I was between 11-13 gpm, I found several references that indicated at least 2 cuft of resin was needed to handle 13 gpm without breakthrough. That, along with the higher flow rates of the 7000, is what led me to my purchase. I know my service can deliver 13 gpm, and now I'm covered if I flow 13 gpm.

Thanx! Wally

[Wally107]

Wally, When I read your post earlier you memtioned about not changing the BLFC from the .125 you currently have in it to a .5. Now I don't see it. What happened?

Sorry mialynette, I probably should have carried this over from my other thread. I was emailing back and forth with Wayne at Pentair...here's my question(s) and his replys (in italics):

Question: Brand new 7000SXT. Came equipped with .125gpm BLFC. Any problem
changing it to .5 or 1.0 BLFC (to shorten BF and therefore overall regen time)?

Yes, the refill rate is based on injector size due to this unit refills the
brine tank with soft water back through the injector orifice size. Your unit is
giving you treated water after rapid rinse, not refill. Nor does it need to be
back in service before you have treated water. You have until the next regen to
have that brine tank refilled.

Ref the .125gpm BLFC: I should NOT change it, since it is correlated (my word)
to the injector...i.e. change one, change both (prob more work than it's worth.
Correct?

No, but the injector size is critical to the performance of the system.

To be honest, I'm still a little fuzzy on whether there's a correlation between the BLFC and the injector. But regardless, Wayne's point is...the .125gpm is fine. I just figure 8 minutes per gallon instead of 2 minutes. IOW...8 minutes to dissolve 3 lbs of salt, instead of 2. And as he points out, the system begins flowing soft water after the rapid rinse, so who cares how long the brine fill takes? As long as I do the math right, it's same same.

[Tom Sawyer]

You are probably pretty close in your estimate then. If you have been talking to Wayne you have been talking to the right guy. I think you have it pretty well sorted out now.

[Gary Slusser]

I guess you agree with the 36 lbs in a 2.0 cuft getting 64K. I'd like to see a resin manufacturer's spec sheet to prove that. 15lbs/cuft = 30lbs for 60K regenerated capacity with 2.0 cuft of regular mesh resin.

And I disagree with his suggesting 48K requiring 16 lbs when Wally is setting the valve for variable reserve which only requires 33600 or 34K using 11.5 lbs; a savings of 4.5 lbs every regeneration. Or 202.5 lbs more per year.

Wally, you may want to ask him why 48K when you don't need it. You don't add a days worth of reserve with variable reserve valves.

I'd go with salt efficiency of 3333 grains/lb (34K @ 11.5 lbs) and 8 minutes backwash, 45 mins brine draw/slow rinse. That increases water use efficiency. I've sold many hundreds of softeners with those settings and I don't hear of any problems from those customers. And since all were sold due to my posts in forums, I'm sure if there were problems they'd be posted in the same forums. They would also be posted on my own forum and there aren't any there or on other forums.

[Wally107]

I just want to thank each of you for keeping this a civil and respectful debate. We all know how these forums often degrade into mud-slinging urination contests. Thankfully, you all have kept this thread from going that way.

Gary - I agree with your thoughts on water efficiency, so I'll go with your setup. If I have any issues, I'll be sure to let you know.

Thanx again to all - Wally

[Wally107]

Before I post this, a little disclosure: I purchased my system from qualitywaterforless.com. I did NOT consult them prior for any sizing assistance, recommendations, etc. My purchase was based solely on info obtained BY ME from several sources (forums, friends, etc.) Price was in line with what other on-line vendors were offering, and shipment was quick and problem-free.

I just wanted to share an email exchange between me and Todd @ QWFL. For brevity, I edited my portion, but left his as is (in italics). Essentially, I was sharing my programming with him to get his input, and I asked him about Reserve Selection:
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7000SXT 64K 2 cuft resin

Use: 300 gal per day X 14 gpg hardness = 4200 grains per day

I'd like to use 8 days between regen (DO=8) 8 X 4200 = 33600 + 1 day reserve = 37800 to regen

I currently have it set as:

Capacity: 40000
DO: 8 days
B1: 8 minutes
BD: 45 minutes
B2: 5 minutes
RR: 5 minutes
BF: 31 minutes - which gets me close to the 12lbs salt dose I want

Also, is there a reason you prefer a Safety Factor of 10% - versus a Fixed Reserve of 300 gal (1 day) - or using the Variable Reserve? It seems the Variable Reserve is pretty goof-proof - just curious.

Up the day overide to 21. The settings are fine. You have a 64,000gr. not a 40,000. Set it however you want. Brine fill is too high, set it at @ 12 minutes. The safety factor versus fixed reserve. Coke & Pepsi Ford and Chevy. It does'nt really matter.

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I'm trying very hard not to sound cocky, because I realize I'm very, very new to this...but:

"Up the day overide to 21." Doesn't this set me up for possible channeling, and overall poor resin health?

"You have a 64,000gr. not a 40,000." Even though it's a 64K (60K) system, right now I'm only using approx 40K, from a "reserve" perspective, isn't it better to use a Capacity of 40K?

"Brine fill is too high, set it at @ 12 minutes." This really has me confused. Is my math right:

12 minutes / 8 minutes per gallon X 3lbs salt per gallon (4.5 lbs salt) X 3333 grains = 14999 grains regen'd?

"The safety factor versus fixed reserve. Coke & Pepsi Ford and Chevy. It does'nt really matter." Hmmmm....

Again, I don't want to cast any aspersions against QWFL, nor deter anyone from purchasing from them. Nonetheless, some of this is radically different from what I (think) I've learned so far.

[mialynette2003]

Wally, You'll drive yourself crazy going back and forth. With softening, everyone has there own ways. Water is always different so what works for me may not work for others. Notice the 60K in ()? I was taught that 1 cf has 30K not 32K. So your 2 cf unit has 60K and not 64K. If I were you, I would but a soap test kit and test the water before a regen, If it maintained soft water until a regen, leave it.

[Gary Slusser]

Wally, you are correct in questioning his figures, they are wrong. The K of capacity of every softener Ive ever seen is adjustable because you can adjust the salt dose. Obviously he is not aware of that plus he mistakenly thinks you can get 64 K out of 2.0 cuft of regular mesh resin.

[Wally107]

mialynette - I concur.

Y'all have taught me enough (I think) about salt dose, capacity, etc., that I feel my current settings are going to get me near the "target". And as you suggested, I'll have test kit in hand before the next regen to "fine tune" it.

I'll consider this thread closed. However, I do want to start a new one regarding "variable brining". It seems like such a useful tool, but there's very little discussion of it.

Thanx again to all!

[Tom Sawyer]

I was going to give you an explanation of variable brining and then I remembered this from awhile back. It's a pretty good synopsis of what variable brining is all about and how the Fleck 7000 handles it.

http://www.catalystsystems.org/?p=96

Personally, I'm not sure just how much money variable brining is going to save you especially when you figure in the added equipment cost but to be honest I sell the stuff, and install the stuff and tend to believe what my distributor tells me about the stuff and unless I have a customer complaining about the stuff I rarely see it again. I suppose I could try keeping track of selected customers salt use and such but.....that's a lot of work and the figures may be skewed also and since they are happy, why open that can o worms.