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Thread: advice on wire gauge for built in oven

  1. #61
    DIY Junior Member Electromen's Avatar
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    I called my supplier, the owner has never heard of a GFCI receptacle specifically for appliances. I check the Leviton web site. I don't see one there either.
    Does anyone have a link?
    Electrical Contractor since 1980

  2. #62
    DIY Senior Member Chad Schloss's Avatar
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    This page is helpful for how they work. It even stated why they should not be used on appliances:

    http://www.rhtubs.com/GFCI/GFCI.htm

    Why a GFCI should not be used with major appliances:

    " A Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter is supposed to be a valuable safety device. Why not use them everywhere, even on large appliances with 3 wire plugs?

    A properly grounded 3 prong outlet provides protection for both people and the appliance should a short circuit develop between a live wireand the cabinet.
    Highly inductive loads like large motors or even fluorescent lamps or fixtures on the same circuit can cause nuisance tripping of GFCIs which needless to say is not desirable for something like a refrigerator."

  3. #63
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtcummins View Post
    Y'all can talk theory till yer bleu in the face...I know for a fact that GFCIs do trip w/o reason. There's probably a good 100 million people in this country who could confirm that they've had random trips.
    There is no one that has said that they don’t trip. What I am saying is if they do trip it is for a reason and the ONLY reason is a difference in current between the black and white wire. They don’t just trip for any reason. This is fact like it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtcummins View Post
    If your head is too far up your arse to deal with reality, that's your problem. Theory or no theory, calculate all you want. Think about it for another few years, run the calcs, read your textbooks. Keep telling people the "facts" based on books.
    The books are the facts, the numbers are the facts, anything else is conjure due to the lack of the facts. A resistance of 30k between the hot and neutral is enough to cause a GFCI to open. This can come from moisture. It can come from inductance between the conductors in a cord if the cord has been treated roughly. The GFCI didn’t trip for just any reason; it tripped because of a reason and that is the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtcummins View Post
    Fact is, in the real world the things do trip, and its not always for a good reason. Many thousands of people can confirm this. Therefore, GFCIs should not be put on appliances such as refrigerators, freezers, cooktops, D/W, disposals, etc.
    One fact is for sure GFCI protection has been required for every receptacle in commercial kitchens where there is all kinds of electrical motor driven equipment including refrigerators and freezers. I can’t help but wonder just how all these devices are not having the same problem. Can you explain it to us?

  4. #64
    In the Trades mtcummins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    The books are the facts, the numbers are the facts, anything else is conjure due to the lack of the facts. A resistance of 30k between the hot and neutral is enough to cause a GFCI to open. This can come from moisture. It can come from inductance between the conductors in a cord if the cord has been treated roughly. The GFCI didn’t trip for just any reason; it tripped because of a reason and that is the facts.

    One fact is for sure GFCI protection has been required for every receptacle in commercial kitchens where there is all kinds of electrical motor driven equipment including refrigerators and freezers. I can’t help but wonder just how all these devices are not having the same problem. Can you explain it to us?
    Books are always facts eh? Hmm... wonder how many times I could disprove that statement... How many times have the books been wrong? How many scientific conclusions have been shown to be wrong, though they were considered and treated as fact until proven so? How often do things just do weird crap (edited myself there, does this make you happy jw?) that people can't explain?

    It must be nice, living in your perfect little world where everything works as it "should." The padded walls would tick me off though.

    I'll tell you what. I'll agree with you, if you agree to replace every one of my perfect condition tools that trips a GFCI. I'll send you a bill each time it happens. Whatcha think? We can do it right... I'll have the tool checked when the breaker trips, if it turns out to have any damage that could trip a GFCI, you're off the hook. If it turns up clean, you pay the bill for the inspection, and pay to replace the tool (since obviously the inspection was wrong and I need a new tool), b/c there's no other reason the darn thing would trip. Put your money where your mouth is and prove that you're right. I can always use an extra of the tools I own, so I'm game.

    I can't say anything about commercial setups, b/c I don't do anything with them. I'm 100% residential. I have no experience with commercial, so I can't make any particularly informed comments about it... maybe some of the pros that do commercial work can comment there.
    Last edited by jwelectric; 12-13-2011 at 03:12 AM.

  5. #65
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Okay now I understand, its just a residential thing. Everything is fine on the commercial side but once we go to residential everythigh goes wrong.
    Still don't change the FACT that the only thing that will cause a GFCI device to open is a difference in the current on the two wires

  6. #66
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Still don't change the FACT that the only thing that will cause a GFCI device to open is a difference in the current on the two wires
    Just because it is a fact that they sense difference between the black and white wire, Does Not mean that you have a Ground Fault, In only means that You May have one.

    It could trip because of noise on the line.
    Last edited by DonL; 12-13-2011 at 05:28 AM.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  7. #67
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    If there is harmonics on a residential system to the power that it would cause a GFCI or Arc-Fault device to open there will be much larger problems that the homeowner will have to deal with.

  8. #68
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electromen View Post
    I called my supplier, the owner has never heard of a GFCI receptacle specifically for appliances. I check the Leviton web site. I don't see one there either.
    Does anyone have a link?
    Here is a link to 1 type available.

    http://www.snw.ac.th/courseware/www....its/qo_epd.pdf

    These are Panel Breakers, not Outlet Receptacles.


    If you search for "EPD" on the internet, I am sure that you can find many more.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  9. #69
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Here is a link to 1 type available.

    http://www.snw.ac.th/courseware/www....its/qo_epd.pdf

    These are Panel Breakers, not Outlet Receptacles.


    If you search for "EPD" on the internet, I am sure that you can find many more.
    And these are not ground fault circuit interupters for personal.

  10. #70
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    And these are not ground fault circuit interupters for personal.
    True, they are Equipment Protection Devices used for normally Grounded Appliances.

    That does not include Toasters that have a two conductor line cord.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  11. #71
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    True, they are Equipment Protection Devices used for normally Grounded Appliances.

    That does not include Toasters that have a two conductor line cord.
    Heat tape for pipe lines. Unless you have a pipeline in your home there is no requirement to have one of these.

  12. #72
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Heat tape for pipe lines. Unless you have a pipeline in your home there is no requirement to have one of these.
    this all would have been good material for the old Ed Sullivan show
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  13. #73
    In the Trades mtcummins's Avatar
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    Ok, this will be my last post on the subject. Its clear that jw has his head too far buried up the arse of the code officials, EEs, etc to listen to the FACT that MILLIONS of people have had this problem, so I'm not arguing anymore after this post. You go ahead live in fantasy land.

    As for the rest of us, here on planet earth, here's the real deal. You need a GFCI in wet areas (laundry, bathrooms, kitchen counters, outdoors), you do NOT need them on appliance circuits (or individual outlets on a shared circuit w/ GFCIs), and SHOULD NOT put them on a refrigerator. There is NOTHING in code that says that this should be done, and those of us who have opened our eyes to look at something other than a book can definitively tell you that they WILL trip sometimes w/o good reason. Therefore, don't put them on appliances. There is nothing against code in doing this, so you can't even make a stupid argument that we're going against the code that you seem to so vehemently support. If the things were necessary on appliances, your precious code officials would have required it.

    Listen to the experience of many, a number of whom, even on just this one thread, are very accomplished and experienced professional electricians. They're all telling you that it happens. If jw can't get past a friggin book, maybe he needs to do some real work with his tools and find out what the rest of us are telling you... they will trip on occasion when using high draw (particularly highly inductive load) tools, and sometimes appliances, that are in perfect condition.

    I'm done. You guys can have it out if you want, but its clearly not going anywhere.

  14. #74
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtcummins View Post
    Ok, this will be my last post on the subject.
    Please Don't make it the your last post on the subject, Because help is need on this subject all of the time.

    It is good to have knowledgeable Experienced Persons like Yourself, too help people experiencing this very issue.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  15. #75
    In the Trades mtcummins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Please Don't make it the your last post on the subject, Because help is need on this subject all of the time.

    It is good to have knowledgeable Experienced Persons like Yourself, too help people experiencing this very issue.
    Ok, I guess I should have said on this thread. I'm sure I'll post on it again, but I'm tired of this ****** match with jw when its clearly going nowhere. I'm not giving up on everyone though
    Last edited by jwelectric; 12-13-2011 at 11:46 AM.

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