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Thread: 3M recommends pressure tank size for their CBF100 carbon filter

  1. #46
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    You do not want water to flow backwards through an injector.

    Bleach sitting in a tank will weaken over time. I think not adding new solution before then will be a problem in keeping your free chlorine where it should be.
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  2. #47
    DIY Junior Member hcw3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    You do not want water to flow backwards through an injector.
    I'm not sure if I made it clear how I'd like to install the HN55.

    This is the illustration from the Chemilizer install manual:
    (the manual is at: http://www.hydrosystemsco.com/images...n55_manual.pdf )
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    but this is how I'd prefer to install it to have non-softened water for gardening etc. -
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    Is there something with this that could make the water flow backwards through the injector?

    I don't understand why they would specify installing it before the pressure switch. I haven't had a reply to emails, I might have to call them.

  3. #48
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Not as long as the center stop valve of the 3 way by pass is closed.

    Pressure tanks rarely provide sufficient retention time.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  4. #49
    DIY Junior Member delta5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hcw3 View Post
    I don't understand why they would specify installing it before the pressure switch. I haven't had a reply to emails, I might have to call them.
    Just a guess, but perhaps the HN55 can create a pressure drop or something and cause the house pressure to deviate from the pressure switch settings.

    Let us know how it works, I've been considering one of these but I would also need to connect it in the manner you show so I can get non-chlorinated water outside for irrigation.

  5. #50
    DIY Junior Member hcw3's Avatar
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    Well, I spoke with a tech at the company, who really didn't help me with my main questions at all.

    He was much more interested in telling me that they don't intend the HN55 as a 'residential' unit. A few years ago it did have the appropriate ratings for domestic household water, from NWS etc, but no longer.

    He told me that it isn't really intended as a 'continuous duty' device - it's more something that would be used perhaps seasonally in agriculture, or industry. I'm not sure that agrees with the company's description in their literature, though.

    Anyone know of a device that would work on the same principle, and is intended for household water?

    Is this such an unusual request, to have a pipe branching off with unprocessed water?

  6. #51
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    How about a flow switch in the irrigation line that cuts power to a standard chemical injection pump when there is flow to the irrigation?

  7. #52
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    I dont really see why the drawing you did would not work. The pump is a diaphragm style, it doesnt care where the pressure tank is. It is a flow based pump system, you could install a check valve after the pump to ensure water does not flow backwards through the pump head, but even that would be a non issue, the amount of water that would flow backwards should be less than a few ounces. Considering the low cost and simplicity of the pump, I would try it.

  8. #53
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valveman View Post
    How about a flow switch in the irrigation line that cuts power to a standard chemical injection pump when there is flow to the irrigation?
    Doing that, turning off a solution feeder pump, if water were used in the house when the solution pump was off, that will cause a serious decrease in the free chlorine residual and that is a difficult thing to correct. Reduced free chlorine residual will eventually lead to incomplete oxidation of whatever the solution feeder is used for including failure in a bacteria control application. That can cause any filter to not work correctly. because the mineral will load up with what was supposed to be oxidized and/or be contaminated with bacteria causing the mineral to fail and need to be replaced. If there is a softener after the filter, then the resin can get loaded up and the softener won't work. Then the wife is pissed and enough of that could cause the guy to lose the house thru divorce and the kids to end up in jail etc..
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #54
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    I agree with Gary on this one. Once the residual gets out of whack, getting it corrected will be an issue and the eventual failure of the system. Ditto, I came to the same conclusion that you did. As drawn I see no reason not to go ahead with that set up and I doubt that I would bother with a check valve either although for the cost it wouldn't hurt.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  10. #55
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Doing that, turning off a solution feeder pump, if water were used in the house when the solution pump was off, that will cause a serious decrease in the free chlorine residual and that is a difficult thing to correct. Reduced free chlorine residual will eventually lead to incomplete oxidation of whatever the solution feeder is used for including failure in a bacteria control application. That can cause any filter to not work correctly. because the mineral will load up with what was supposed to be oxidized and/or be contaminated with bacteria causing the mineral to fail and need to be replaced. If there is a softener after the filter, then the resin can get loaded up and the softener won't work. Then the wife is pissed and enough of that could cause the guy to lose the house thru divorce and the kids to end up in jail etc..
    OK then don't use the flow switch to turn off the chlorinator. Don't want you getting a divorse, losing the house, or the kids to end up in jail.

    I have used a similar device for injecting fertilizer. It works good but needs regular maintenance. Had to replace o-rings and stuff every year or so if I remember correctly.

  11. #56
    DIY Junior Member hcw3's Avatar
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    I have to say, the plumber that installed the system suggested a flow-switch. I've learned to question all his work!

    Yes, maintenance is one of my concerns, I need fewer chores. Now that I'm old enough to join the AARP, I'm trying to find ways to simplify my life, not complicate it!

    If it's a matter of just a couple of easy o-rings, that's fine, but if I have to thoroughly disassemble it annually, that won't do.

    Then there's the point they make in their docs about possibly needing to filter bad well-water...

    My water comes out fairly clear untreated, before the system, but it is sulfur-smelly and has a tendency to stain the shower and toilet bowl red. No sediment to speak of.

    Would you expect high iron or sulfur to wear rubber parts prematurely?

    And my wife's still with me, thank god, and hoping I get out of the basement soon... The kid, well, he's smart enough to know he doesn't want to be a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, like his father, and hasn't ended up in jail! ;-)

  12. #57
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    All chlorine systems require maintenance on more than an annual basis.

    If you have less than say 3-4 ppm of iron, an air pump system will get rid of it and the H2S. There is little maintenance with that type system. You can find them with a search for "air pump" + H2S or something close to that.

    I'm glad to hear the family is still intact, good job.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  13. #58
    DIY Junior Member hcw3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    If you have less than say 3-4 ppm of iron, an air pump system will get rid of it and the H2S. There is little maintenance with that type system. You can find them with a search for "air pump" + H2S or something close to that.
    You know, I was looking into 'air treatment' a number of years ago, and I always came up with difficult or near-impossible methods. I didn't even look into it last year, before I ordered this system. These air-pump systems make more sense, for ease of installation, anyway.

    But if I remember, my water's iron levels are higher than you've specified. I'll have to see if I can obtain the results of my water test, and look into aeration again.

    Would my existing 120gal chlorine contact-tank be useable as the 'vent tank' in the Air-Pump-System at http://www.qualitywaterassociates.co...on/airpump.htm on QualityWaterAssociates website? And is there any reason that my 3M CBF100 charcoal filter wouldn't be good enough as the filter?
    Last edited by hcw3; 04-16-2012 at 06:09 PM.

  14. #59
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    An air pump system makes a lot of sense when compared to an air injection system. The air pump is much less maintenance intensive and usually works where air injection won't, or doesn't work well.

    The oxidation takes place in the vent tank and not the plumbing to an air injection's retention tan. The plumbing in an air injection system usually blocks up causing reduced gpm for the filter to backwash with. Then the filter fails, and eventually any softener past it.

    Yes you should be able to reuse your tanks but I would suggest Centaur carbon instead of regular carbon.

    I hope you are aware that I am out of business.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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