Help! Is shower trim wrong in all 3 bathrooms?!

**ladoladi** · 10-13-2011, 06:26 AM

Hello:

As part of a whole house remodel, we reno'd 3 bathrooms. The master shower has 2 sets of trim handles--1 for the showerhead and 1 for the jets. All in all, we have 4 sets of shower handles. They are all Moen (different models) and all have the correct rough-in valve.

Our concern is that 3 of the 4 handles look "wrong." They are not flush with the wall plate. There is a metal cylinder (part #96987) that is quite visible through the gap between the handle and the wall plate. I should add that I don't even see part #12574 anywhere in the installation the plumber did. I took it apart to check after he was gone.

Diagram of Moen Shower Trim:

http://www.moen.com/shared/docs/inst...s/ins1901b.pdf

The 1 (out of 4) handle that looks correct to us:

The rest of the handles are this far away from the shower trim:

My questions:

1. Is this "normal" and acceptable?

2. If we wanted to make the handles flush with the wall plate, do we have any options as far as solutions?

BTW, we have a plumber who did the installation, and his first reaction was to think I was crazy for worrying about the gap. When I stressed the issue, he tried cutting the metal cylinder on the one that sticks out, but that had no effect on how much it sticks out. He said it's possible his partner (who did the rough in) put the valves out too far. If we were to cut a hole behind the plumbing (the tile is already in), could we "pull" the plumbing and valve further in?

**jadziedzic** · 10-13-2011, 09:57 AM

The missing piece is called a "plaster guard", used to keep plaster and etc. out of the vavle area while the wall is being finished. They can be and often are removed prior to tiling.

The person who roughed in the valves did not position them correctly; they should have been installed deeper into the wall. The problem with pulling the valve is that any attached rigid piping (copper, not pex) such as supply lines or the shower riser will also need to move.

**ladoladi** · 10-13-2011, 01:18 PM

Should this incorrect positioning of the valve be obvious to a reputable plumber? My plumber is licensed and all, but when I kept saying the handle looked "wrong" sticking up off the wall plate he just, basically, said, "Nah, no way. It's fine. It won't leak back there. Don't worry about it." The solution he suggested was to find out if Moen makes a longer cylinder so that the one that looks normal will be just as far off the wall plate as the others, which sounded absolutely absurd to me, but he just looked at me like I was crazy when I kept saying that was the only one that looked "right."

**jadnashua** · 10-13-2011, 01:57 PM

There is a min/max value for most valves and this might be as much as an inch or so of tolerance in where the valve body can be placed and the trim still fitting. This min/max relates to the installation that will allow the trim to fit, not how you might want it to look. As long as the trim fits, it is a 'correct' installation. For best cosmetic appearances, at least in the same shower, you'd want them all to be the same. If a valve is installed too deep in the wall, many manufacturers make an extension kit to move the handle shaft out so the trim can still be installed. There is no fix for the valve being too far out and showing more of the shaft (i.e., moving the handle out) except for moving the valve body back.

**Terry** · 10-13-2011, 08:45 PM

That's pretty typical. Most of the time, the handle is out there a ways. At least if you follow Moen's specs.

**jimbo** · 10-14-2011, 05:52 AM

It takes a little effort, and the plumber has to be provided with an exact sample of the wall build....backer, tiles, mortar, shims, whatever is going onto that wall, in order to be exact. Even with that, the install specs usually have 1/2" to 3/4" wiggle room.

hj · 10-14-2011, 08:25 AM

Please DO NOT be one of those customers who complain, "But it doesn't look like the picture or the showroom display". The ONLY time it looks like that is when it IS installed improperly, namely too deeply in the wall. IF the valve is installed close to the manufacturer's recommendation, as set by the "plaster guard" it will ALWAYS have substantial amount of the "stop tube" visible. In fact the manufacturer has a maximum/minimum variation to allow for revisions to the wall structure after the valve is installed, which WILL cause a variation in the amount of tube visible. IF the plumber tried to GUESS at what the finished wall location was REALLY going to be and erred, then he would have had to install an "extension' which would have moved the handle even FURTHER away from the trim ring. YOUR VALVE IS INSTALLED CORRECTLY IF he did not have to use an extension, and the trim plate fits against the wall. The only time it is INCORRECT is when either of those two conditions exist, meaning it is too DEEP, or too far OUT of the wall.

The "longer cylinder", and stem, is called an "extension kit", usually only used when the installation IS WRONG. A reputable plumber would NOT say the installation is wrong, so he would NOT have said anything about its positioning.

**ladoladi** · 10-14-2011, 09:25 AM

I am certainly not "one of those customers." My SO and I have had everything go wrong in our remodel: from tile installation in the bathrooms to the wood floors to the kitchen cabinets and now this. Through it all, we have been extremely patient and level-headed with our sub-contractors, and have never asked for more than what is possible. In fact, when they have messed up, we have been the first to offer to repurchase the materials and even pay them for some of their extra time to get it right. That is all we want. It has been a long, difficult, and expensive process, and all we have asked is for our sub-contractors to pay attention to the details and not do sloppy work.

I am not asking for the handle to match what is in the diagram or at the showroom, as I did not buy the shower trim from a show room. All I am asking is for the two handles that are in the SAME shower to match each other. Obviously, if 1 of these 4 handles throughout the house is correctly set against the wall plate, then I don't see why it is so problematic to have all of them set correctly against the wall plate. The distances from handle to wall plate are 3/8", 3/4", and 1". This is way beyond Moen's specified 1/8" - 1/4" tolerance.

**BobL43** · 10-14-2011, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by ladoladi

I am certainly not "one of those customers." My SO and I have had everything go wrong in our remodel: from tile installation in the bathrooms to the wood floors to the kitchen cabinets and now this. Through it all, we have been extremely patient and level-headed with our sub-contractors, and have never asked for more than what is possible. In fact, when they have messed up, we have been the first to offer to repurchase the materials and even pay them for some of their extra time to get it right. That is all we want. It has been a long, difficult, and expensive process, and all we have asked is for our sub-contractors to pay attention to the details and not do sloppy work.

I am not asking for the handle to match what is in the diagram or at the showroom, as I did not buy the shower trim from a show room. All I am asking is for the two handles that are in the SAME shower to match each other. Obviously, if 1 of these 4 handles throughout the house is correctly set against the wall plate, then I don't see why it is so problematic to have all of them set correctly against the wall plate. The distances from handle to wall plate are 3/8", 3/4", and 1". This is way beyond Moen's specified 1/8" - 1/4" tolerance.

I can understand how you feel. If 2 shower valves are in the same shower (that must be a big shower stall), then I also would expect the plumber to be careful enough to make those 2 at least, mounted the same. On the otherhand, maybe there was something in the wall that interfered with the exact desired depth of mounting it? That's why I pretty much do everything myself. When I screw up, I can only blame myself and laugh at it (until my wife makes me rip it out and do it over) and realize you get what you pay for. Sad to say, contractors in just about every trade in my area are in it for a quick buck. Not everybody, that would not be fair to say, but when you find a good contractor, you stick with him. When you do a batrhroom and put good money into it, you expect more than just good function. Appearrance is very important. If the shower valves were all in different rooms, then I would be more willing to accept it. All the tradesman here say there is nothing wrong here, but I wonder if they were not plumbers and were in your situation, if they'd be willing to accept this?
Sorry to stir the pot here, but those are MY feelings.

**Terry** · 10-14-2011, 10:13 AM

Nowhere on the specs does it list an 1/8" variance. That would be an insane construction tolerance for a shower valve.
Even the tile grout on the wall can vary by 1/4" depending on how it's spread. And the tile itself can be either thin or thick. You would have to be God to get that one right. And then depend on God fearing men to be perfect too.

It does show on the spec sheet that the difference between the IPS and the CC (sweated) valve is 1/8" different, based on how the brass bodies are cast.

It would have been nice in the one room with two control valves if those had matched up.
Same wall or different wall?

I can say that if anyone here that plumbs had installed those valves to, and notice this (2-1/2" MAX) from center of pipe to finished wall that there would still be a goodly amount of stem showing. And that's the "Max" dimension. You can have it closer to the finished wall and it's still in spec.
http://www.moen.com/shared/docs/prod...s/ts2713sp.pdf

Be glad you chose a major brand that allows for that. Some of the Pegasus valves on the shelf at Home Depot had absolutely no tolerance. Those were a nightmare for plumbers.

**ladoladi** · 10-14-2011, 10:28 AM

Terry,

You are correct about 1/8" - 1/4" being incorrect. That's what the Moen representative told me on the phone yesterday "off the top of her head." I just called back and had the rep look it up and got different numbers this time. This rep also had another suggestion.

It seems I can get an (expensive) 1/2" escutcheon extender for the handle the handles that are 3/4" and 1" away from the wall plates, and I'm happy with that solution, assuming the escutcheon extender doesn't look like crud.

My concern is still the handles in the master shower that are one on top of the other (one for shower head, one for jets) and only about a foot (if that) apart. These are the 2 in the pictures I posted in my original post. The two handles are so close together that it looks really ODD that there should be such a gap in one and almost no gap in the other.

**Dia** · 10-14-2011, 09:08 PM

I too, am having the same problem ... just saw our finished trim today. Moen Kingsley shower handle (moentrol) in ensuite and Moen Rothbury tub/shower combo in main. I asked the plumber about it but he said that was perfectly normal. I don't like how it looks at all ... as for "being one of those customers" that complain about it not looking like the showroom ... I have never shopped for shower trim in my life except for our now extensive and expensive 2 bathroom renovation that is nearly complete ... when I purchase a product I expect it to look like what is presented to me .... or at the very least ... have the sales person at least mention how the end product may look different. I wouldn't have even thought to be concerned about the handle depth. I will have to get used to it but I think that Moen has misrepresented their product.

hj · 10-15-2011, 08:53 AM

quote; In fact, when they have messed up, we have been the first to offer to repurchase the materials and even pay them for some of their extra time to get it right.

Now I do have a problem with THAT. If it was really the contractor's error, it makes no difference how much it costs, HE should have redone it WITHOUT any extra cost, at least I and most other plumbers, would have. Do you really think a salesperson, who is trying to induce you to make a purchase, is going to say, "This is what some bippy at the factory thought it should look like when the display was assembled, BUT yours may not look anything like this, because the company makes the valves to work in the real work, not in a designer's office"? There is also the situation where the homeowner tells the plumber the wall will be 3/8" tile cemented to the wall board, but when the room is finished, she says, "You know, we decided that 1" stone tile on a cement base REALLY looked better." AND then complains the valve does not look like it should have after he does whatever is necessary to correct for HER revision.

**LLigetfa** · 10-15-2011, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by ladoladi

He said it's possible his partner (who did the rough in) put the valves out too far. If we were to cut a hole behind the plumbing (the tile is already in), could we "pull" the plumbing and valve further in?

IMHO, both are set wrong but the calculation of where the finished surface landed may or may not have been the plumber's fault. One is set too deep and the other too shallow. If I were the contractor, I would open the wall from the other side and make adjustments. Depending on how much slack there is to "pull" or "push" the rough-in, it may require re-sweating some of the joints.

hj · 10-15-2011, 02:29 PM

quote; IMHO, both are set wrong but the calculation of where the finished surface landed may or may not have been the plumber's fault. One is set too deep and the other too shallow.

I am glad your screen name says "not in the trades", because that comment would be ludicrous otherwise. A valve is ONLY set "too deep" when it needs an extension, and if it is "too shallow" you are screwed because there is no "pretty" way to make it right. Deep or shallow can also be caused by the tile installer, the construction carpenters, the builder, or the homeowner. All the plumber can do is go by what they tell him when he installs the valve, although normally since all the walls in a room should be the same, the valves should come out equal.

That "correct valve" in the second picture came within a 1/4" of being WRONG and requiring an extension, so someone was lucky. There is only one extension and it is 1" additional.