Acid neutralizer backflushing

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Speedbump

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It sounds like your way ahead of all of us. Have you ever thought of getting into the installing business?bob...
 

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speedbump said:
It sounds like your way ahead of all of us. Have you ever thought of getting into the installing business?bob...

Thanks for the compliment.

I'm a mechanical engineer by education. Perhaps that's where I get it.
If it can be built, it should be built well. I think that would be my downfall. I'd just take too damn long!
I like to have everything look good as well as operate efficiently. That's why I've been killing you with questions! The more I learn about this stuff the more I realize how little I know. I'm not too proud to admit I know very little about this stuff. Sure, the principals of fluid dynamics and thermodynamics all apply but moving from theory to the field is another thing entirely.

You should the see the hydronic system I've designed to replace the existing system. :). Baseboard, radiant floor, DHW, DHW recirc. (insert Tim Allen grunting here). Let's see if reality reflects theory.
 

Gary Slusser

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Yes you need a mixed bed, and careful of what "calcite and corrosex" you use; there are huge differences in them from one brand/type to another.

Although I agree with Bob on the prefilter, they are useless, I say that with an upflow model you will over correct the pH at first and then it probably won't be raising your pH to 7.0 during peak demand flow rates. After over correcting stops (the corrosex will be used up), the calcite alone won't be capable of raising the pH to 7.0.

Sorry Bob, personally, they should outlaw upflow AN filters. The bottom basket clogging up is why the need for prefiltering. A blocked bottom basket shuts off your water eventually, before that it makes live miserable. And the mineral gets dirty which reduces flow and the dirt can not be removed because there is no way other than replacing the mineral. And unless the tank is a TDH (top dome hole) type, you have to remove the filter from the plumbing to add new mineral and there's no way to backwash the dust out or the old mineral of dirt, so you're adding new on top of dirty... not good. About the only good in an upflow AN filter is the purchase price, but the cost is always higher than a correctly sized backwashed model. Cost being purchase price + maintenance + all damage done to plumbing and fixtures if the acid neutralizing doesn't work right...

I've treated many wells with even lower pH than your water has. I've sold one upflow many years ago, and never again. All filters and softeners have a specific service flow rate (SFR), totally dependent on the volume of mineral or resin only. The volume dictates the size of the tank used, the size of the tank dictates the control valve that can be used. The control valve has to be capable of backwashing the volume of mineral AND the well water system must be capable of delivering the gpm and pressure required to do that.

That's why you don't see larger than 2.0 cuft AN filters; the mineral is too heavy for most well water systems to backwash it properly. And since all waters contain invisible dirt, backwashing is the best way to go, and IMO the only way to go if you want to protect the plumbing and fixtures and be much more service free as far as the equipment goes. Also, all mineral manufacturers give the OEM/dealer the backwash requirements, if upflow were to be used, why would they give backwash requirements? Why do you see very few dealers selling upflow, OR why do you see the majority of dealers selling backwashed...? Could it be we don't want unsatisfactory results and lawsuits?

All backwashed models have a settle rinse, to compact the bed. Upflow expands the bed every time you run water in the house... That does not allow proper time for the neutralizing of acidic water. The need to backwash is to prevent channeling which prevents the mineral from raising the pH.

IMO, a 1.0 cuft is too small for a family of four, and your pH BUT the SFR of the filter is way lower than a 2.5 or larger house will require.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
 

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Gary,
Thanks for your input. It's always good to hear both pros and cons. I''ve already switched to the 1.5 cuft. I don't have the experience of either you or Bob. So all I can do is use the information, not personal experience, to make my decisions. You may be right. Bob may be right.
If Bob's right, I've saved hundreds of dollars. The cheapest backwash type I've seen is like $600. I'll be testing my water afterwards for a while to make sure things are OK. If I need to, I'll switch the plumbing around and try it as a downflow with my own backflush arrangement. To backflush I'd have to run a drain pipe across the basement. Still I'm out a few more bucks in pipe and valves.
If you're right, and the whole upflow thing is crap. I'll still have to buy some expensive downflow unit and still have to plumb a drain across to the basement. So I'm really only out the couple hundred I spent on the downflow.

As far as backflush volume. I'm not sure. I have a bladder tank about the size of a 55 gallon drum at 70 PSI and it's about 3 feet of 1" pipe away from the neutralizer. During the quality and quantity test done during purchase, the well produced 8+ GPM for 5 hours. We'll have to see. Anyway, upflow, downflow, sideflow, I'm not blowing $300 on an electronic backflush valve. I'll find a manual one somewhere.
I'm a bit of a cynic anyway. People want to sell you expensive things for other reasons than your own well being. That's why a friend was sold a neutralizer for a couple of grand.
 

Speedbump

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I agree there may be problems with his upflow, however in my area we have several of these in service and have had zero problems. Our water is just different than yours in your area.

If he does have problems and needs to go to backwash, all he needs to do is install the backwash head on the tank he has now. He needed the tank anyway. So no harm in trying it this way first. And no plumbing of the drain line yet.

bob...
 

Gary Slusser

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jimmym said:
Gary,
Thanks for your input. Anyway, upflow, downflow, sideflow, I'm not blowing $300 on an electronic backflush valve. I'll find a manual one somewhere.
I'm a bit of a cynic anyway. People want to sell you expensive things for other reasons than your own well being. That's why a friend was sold a neutralizer for a couple of grand.

Although you can't compare internet prices with local dealers that have to show up to install and/or service their equipment, I partially agree that your neighbor was taken. Yet very obviously you haven't checked my prices or my reputation. You can do both with a quick google search for "Gary Slusser" or "Quality Water Associates" with the "". And you can check google groups for my name and that will take you back to Jan '97, eventually. I've been helping people on the internet with questions such as yours since then; at no charge and with no obligation. So I'm pretty sure I don't fall into that description of a salesman, actually I've been telling people to stay away from that type for roughly 25 years.

BTW, I have a very good manual backwash filter valve. :)

Gary
Quality Water Associates
 

Jimmym

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Well, as soon as the parts are installed and I get the whole thing running, I'll post pH results. We'll see what this thing does with my water.
Gary, didn't mean to lump you in with the "other" salesman. Too often, all you ever hear about are the bad guys, which leaves to good guys getting painted with the same brush.
If the pH isn't corrected enough, I'll switch it to downflow.
 

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Neutralization update

Well, things have been running for a couple of months now with GREAT results. Final installation is Pump->CSV->tank&switch->upflow neutralizer.
Just after the neutraliser I have a hose bib. I've connected a large garden hose to this and opened it up outside during a "flow test". This flows way more water than my tub/kitchen can. The pump holds about 45 PSI (after the AN) indefinitely with the hose running.
Water quality/taste has improved immeasurably. I don't have a point of use carbon filter anymore. I have all the flow I need and pressure drop at maximum use is never more than a few PSI.
It uses about 1/2-3/4" of media per month.
All my plumbing is now CPVC so I'm not too concerned with pH now.
 

Gary Slusser

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I'm glad to hear it's working well. I think what saved you is the CSV, otherwise the pressure fluctuation would be a problem and your flow may have been reduced.

You didn't say what the pH is.

To raise the pH to 7.0, the filter's SFR gpm has to be equal to or greater than the peak demand (total gpm used) of all water use gpm. That's with both the sink and shower and laundry etc. running at the same time; or how ever you use water. So what is the pH when you use the max gpm at the hose bib?

Thanks for the feedback.
 

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I'll have to get a pH test kit. I suppose a pool test kit will work. The nearest 10th should be close enough.
It'll be interesting to see what the pH does based on flow rate. At work here, they were throwing away a fiberglass tank like the one I have only bigger. This thing was about 12" across and 5' tall. Perhaps it's still in the dumpster.
 
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