ActionDave
Electrician
That was a good explanation, and much more colourful than mine.This is a simplified version of how it all works, but I hope it helps.
-rick
That was a good explanation, and much more colourful than mine.This is a simplified version of how it all works, but I hope it helps.
-rick
Maybe I do. While the black wire of the receptacle circuit was shorted in the clamp at the top of the panel and the panel was not bonded, that incoming leg showed no voltage when measured across to the neutral bar and the panel (and its ground bar) did show 120V when measured against the neutral bar ... and then measuring across the other incoming leg and the panel (ground bar) showed 240V ... and during all of that, I was only getting a small tingle between the panel and my bare feet when I touched the panel with my finger. So while I do understand the ground rod is not intended to be a catchall for stray current, it certainly did protect me from a full-voltage shock while that one incoming leg was directly shorted to the panel.You made a comment about current going to the ground rod which is not what is happening unless you have a lot of iron in the soil in your area.
I shorted a wire in a clamp and my ground round spared me from a great shock;
If what you are saying is true, then I should be able to go out there and put my finger on one of the incoming legs while standing barefoot on the concrete floor and still only feel a small tingle ... unless, of course, the pinch at the clamp was so very slight at the time that the breaker would not have tripped even if the panel *had* been bonded. The things I know for certain, however, are that the shorted leg showed no voltage at all when measured against the neutral bar, and that I had 240V between the other incoming leg and ground. I clearly understand you do not want people mistakenly depending upon a ground circuit to protect them from stray voltage, but the power from that shorted leg was going somewhere other than through its connected receptacle circuit (just beyond the pinch) that showed absolutely no voltage at all for the duration of the short.This is a very untrue statement and has no merit at all. The ground rod did nothing to protect you from any shock unless there was a lightning strike at the time you touched the panel.
The only thing that kept you from getting a bad shock was the resistance between the source and you.
If what you are saying is true, then I should be able to go out there and put my finger on one of the incoming legs while standing barefoot on the concrete floor and still only feel a small tingle ... unless, of course, the pinch at the clamp was so very slight at the time that the breaker would not have tripped even if the panel *had* been bonded. The things I know for certain, however, are that the shorted leg showed no voltage at all when measured against the neutral bar, and that I had 240V between the other incoming leg and ground. I clearly understand you do not want people mistakenly depending upon a ground circuit to protect them from stray voltage, but the power from that shorted leg was going somewhere other than through its connected receptacle circuit (just beyond the pinch) that showed absolutely no voltage at all for the duration of the short.
Tell me where you happen to believe I am wrong if that is all you can do, but help me understand if you can and will! Are you meaning to suggest all power coming in on that shorted leg simply stopped flowing at the point of the pinch except for "just enough" to give me a small tingle and to show voltage on my meter?
I do understand that, and I am trying to be careful about not being deceived by a sensitive meter. For example: After I had found and relieved the second pinch (a white wire in a lighting box) while trying to get rid of continuity between my neutral bar and ground (prior to the panel being bonded), I sometimes saw continuity between the neutral bar and ground and I sometimes did not. I could disconnect the neutral wire coming in with the feed and see no continuity between my neutral bar and ground, but then continuity would again eventually show up a little while after I had reconnected that incoming neutral wire ... and at the time, the only "cause" I could detect/suspect anywhere was the ever-changing cloud cover occasionally blocking the sun! But of course, I do not really believe the presence or absence of direct sunlight was affecting/effecting continuity there. Rather, I just cannot imagine a 5ma leak/short stopping *all* power from being available in the thereafter circuit connected to that incoming leg.Interesting questions, but you need to be awayre that it only takes a few milliamps (maybe 5 or so ma) passing through the heart of the average person to be a widow maker. 5ma is almost nothing otherwise. not even enough to light up a little 4 watt incandescant nightlight bulb.
What you felt can be measured with a meter
If what you are saying is true, then I should be able to go out there and put my finger on one of the incoming legs while standing barefoot on the concrete floor and still only feel a small tingle ... unless, of course, the pinch at the clamp was so very slight at the time that the breaker would not have tripped even if the panel *had* been bonded. The things I know for certain, however, are that the shorted leg showed no voltage at all when measured against the neutral bar, and that I had 240V between the other incoming leg and ground. I clearly understand you do not want people mistakenly depending upon a ground circuit to protect them from stray voltage, but the power from that shorted leg was going somewhere other than through its connected receptacle circuit (just beyond the pinch) that showed absolutely no voltage at all for the duration of the short.
Tell me where you happen to believe I am wrong if that is all you can do, but help me understand if you can and will! Are you meaning to suggest all power coming in on that shorted leg simply stopped flowing at the point of the pinch except for "just enough" to give me a small tingle and to show voltage on my meter?
That is not what any of this is about, Cookie. This is about trying to understand how I was *not* injured when one leg of the power coming into my workshop was directly shorted to ground (at least lightly) and I happened to touch the outside of the panel like anybody at all might have done on any day while just flipping a breaker either on or off for any reason at all.I am still waiting to see a post, saying, you made that call...
While you might be completely right there, that statement does not make any sense to me. Resistance somewhere -- something somewhere not receiving all the power available -- is what made it possible for a trickle to come through to me ... and that leaves me wondering why no voltage at all was available to the shorted circuit while I was only feeling a small trickle from the feed to that circuit. Where was the remainder of that power going? Either the pinch had blocked it from going out to the workshop's receptacle or else that power was going into the ground.The resistance between the black wire and the short in the clamp was high enough that it would take most of the voltage drop when you come in series with that resistance.
I think I understand that, and that supports my theory that most of the shorted voltage/power was flowing directly to ground rather than through me. For example:When you walk up and put your finger to a leg of the feeder supplying the building barefoot then the conductors, you, and earth are the three resistors in series with the connection to earth at the transformer supplying your service therefore all the current is flowing through you back to the source and the amount of voltage across your body will be equal to the differences of the total of the resistance of the other two.
Yes, I can explain the photo, and no, that photo has nothing to do with electricity. That photo came into this thread after someone tried to take a cheap shot and I called him on that.Can you explain that photo with the tarped camper and the well[?] pipe in the air and a tree [?] propping it up?
Is that about leaking electricity?
It was not shorted to ground. Nothing and I repeat nothing is ever shorted to ground period. A short is from one conductor to another conductor. From hot to earth is a fault to ground.one leg of the power coming into my workshop was directly shorted to ground
and until it does then there is no way for me to get you to understand anything. The first thing you need to learn is that the ground rod does nothing at all to protect any oneWhile you might be completely right there, that statement does not make any sense to me.
again it does not go to ground it goes back to its source.I think I understand that, and that supports my theory that most of the shorted voltage/power was flowing directly to ground rather than through me. For example:
and through earth back to the pole which the transformer is mounted on, up the copper wire to the transformer but not to earth itself.would then flow directly through me and to the concrete floor (earth)
That I definitely understand, and I thank you. I have heard some of the debates/discussions about "returning power to the earth" or whatever, and I did not mean to be getting into that. So then ...From hot to earth is a fault to ground ... through earth back to the pole which the transformer is mounted on, up the copper wire to the transformer but not to earth itself.
That I definitely understand, and I thank you. I have heard some of the debates/discussions about "returning power to the earth" or whatever, and I did not mean to be getting into that. So then ...
The short to my panel that is connected to my ground rod made it possible for that mis-directed current to flow back to wherever best rather than through me, and that flow is what essentially robbed my workshop's receptacles of the power they otherwise would have had available. However, and as Jadnashua (sp?) had cautioned early-on here: A ground rod should never be dangerously assumed to always be a never-failing safety shunt.
Please accept my apology: I was not meaning to say "Mother Earth" or whoever/whatever had protected me from the shorted power any more than I believe the outage we had here the other day was any kind of "act of God" ... and I say that with all due respect, dear Cookie! Rather, a trucker somewhere had simply knocked a pole over and caused a lot of trouble for a lot of people, and I just cannot believe God had anything to do with that!
Question: Two neighboring farmers pray ... one for rain for his beans, and the other for no rain so he can harvest his wheat. Whose prayer gets answered?!
That I definitely understand, and I thank you. The short to my panel that is connected to my ground rod made it possible for that mis-directed current to flow back to wherever best rather than through me, and that flow is what essentially robbed my workshop's receptacles of the power they otherwise would have had available.
OH, OH, OH, I Know! It hooks up to the other terminal on the battery to complete the circuit.Where does it hook up to?
lol, nope, trick question. no black wire. chassis is metal and hanging bracket is metal, must be grounded. don't you have those dangly straps hanging from the back of your truck to ground it? lightning strips? lol
This is awkward, but...
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