basement shower drain

[DanAK]

I’m replacing a leaking fiberglass shower with a custom tiled one in my basement. The old one is all ripped out and I am down to concrete floor with a 2” copper drain pipe extending up about 1 ¼”.) I can’t seem to find a suitable drain. They all seem to be too big. They seem designed to fit larger (and PVC, not copper) drain pipe, and also seem to be at least 4” high.

If I use some kind of adapter to change from copper to PVC I’ll be making the drain even higher.

It seems a drain sort of like used for bathtubs, that slips down inside with a sealing collar would be great. But I haven’t seen anything like that suitable for a tiled shower, with weepholes.

Is there some solution short of chopping out the embedding concrete floor?

[kreemoweet]

No, there is not, unless you want to end up with a ridiculously high shower floor. Showers require special drains, and there is a bit involved in figuring where to
place them, along with all the other details of shower construction.

[johnfrwhipple]

Most bathtubs are piped with copper it seems in high rise projects around Vancouver. In most private homes I see cast iron or ABS.

Connecting to an old copper line is so simple. You can get "No-Hub, MJ, Fernco" fittings that will fit over the copper pipe and then tie into 2" lines. They are labelled with funny code like ' 2" copper to 2" ABS/PVC ' and available online or at any good plumbing wholesaler. I have about 4-6 of every kind in my van.

It's nice to lower the vertical section of pipe and this can be done with a pipe cutter designed to enter a pipe and cut or by removing more concrete and using regular methods.

With your drain set up as is we could install a new three piece clamping drain in about one hour. If the hole was wide open about 10 minutes.

You could install a Proline Drain from Quick Drain USA with a 2" - 2" copper MJ.
You could install an ACO flanged drain the same way.
You could go 2" copper MJ to 2" ABS OR PVC with a short length of pipe and drop a Nobel Drain on top
You could go 2" copper MJ to 2" ABS or PVC with a short length of pipe and install a three piece clamping drain;
this would let you install any regular drain like a CanPlas, Zurn or Watts

or a linear drain from My Shower Grate Shop, ACO, Luxe etc. You could even install a Kerdi drain over that pipe but it is harder to check the connection visually because of the huge flange on the Kerdi drain.

Remember that almost no tile crews carry insurance to hook up shower drains. Make sure a plumber does this if your a GC or builder. If it's your own single detached home you might be allowed but bring the inspectors down to make sure your on the right track.

Always flood test your projects. 1- 3 days is code.

When designing this new shower think about first what it's going to look like. Visit www.houzz.com for design ideas. Once you have a vision - work backward and find out what type of setting material and grout you have access to and like. You will find many tile stores and tile manufactures require the use of modified thin-set. The folks at John Bridge are nice and many times helpful but you will find that most of the helpful posters only recommend Kerdi and with Kerdi you need un-modified thinset. With Ditra you can use both under the Ditra if you have plywood but they recommend modified most times and over Ditra its' always un-modified, unless you use Grani Rapid and Schluter says it's OK. Even then I've heard Schluter say don't use the liquid with Grani and Mapei (who makes it) says always use it. So confusing I know.

Easier to use Nobel TS, Hydro Ban, Aqua D, Red Guard, Wedi or just about ever other product that doesn't have these back and forth rules.

Send me a picture or post one here and you will have a few plumbers chime in and tell you what you can do. Don't ask a tile guy how to hook up a drain. Check your local codes and find out what you can do.



This is a 29th floor Penthouse Guest Bathroom. There used to be a tub. We tied in this CanPlas clamping drain into a 1 1/2" Copper drain line.




Quick Drain USA line drain tied into a 1 1/2" copper line. Here we could reach in and cut out the copper and the plumber used a fire rated 1 1/2" PVC. We added the fireblocking and prepared the slope.



Another condo. 1 1/2" copper to Proline drain.

[hj]

You need a drain with a rubber seal for the pipe, but THEN you need to order the rubber seal that fits 2" copper pipe. ALL the proper drains wil be about 2"-3" above the concrete so you can install the PROPER membrane and mortar/concrete sub base under the tile.

[DanAK]

Thanks for the replies.

What I’m hearing is I’m going to have to break out some concrete around my drain pipe, even for drains like the Proline or ACO (which I hadn’t considered but do look great). Like many projects this started as “just” a little leak and keeps growing in size and scope at each new revelation. I’d hoped to avoid breaking out the concrete to not only avoid that extra work and potential for a new round of issues, but also the risk of damaging the embedded copper drain. But of course I want to do it right – I sure don’t want to have to revisit it or leave a mess for someone else down the road. This is what I've got, 2" copper coming up about 1 1/4 inches

All I’ve found available around here are a plastic 3 piece like this: or a metal one, slightly bigger like:

I now see a few more styles online, but still nothing like I was hoping – sort of something like the Davke 4000 but designed with weepholes for a membrane/tile installation. And would have a minimal height so I could keep the final level of the shower floor to something reasonable. But since that doesn’t seem to exist I guess I need to chop out some of the concrete to make room for an adapter and drain.

Along that line, will a masonry blade on my circular saw, masonry chisel and hand sledge get it done? Any trick on protecting the copper pipe? Or will that not matter anyway?

As far as waterproofing the pan, I was planning on using a rubber (neoprene?) membrane available at Home Depot with a 3 piece drain, since that’s pretty much all I’ve seen available around here. They have red guard too, but I was thinking that’d be a little riskier in making it all good and water proof. The Kerdi stuff is pretty convincing in its waterproofing and quality and ease though. I think I’d have to order it if I was going that way. I hadn’t been aware of most of the other stuff mentioned, like Nobel and Wedi, etc.

Thanks for your help.

[geniescience]

A liquid trowel on membrane like Redgard (and others) can be good for you. Read the Redgard site. You don't need to go down and open up space for weepholes when you use Redgard (and others like it.).

[geniescience]

... ALL the proper drains wil be about 2"-3" above the concrete .... PROPER membrane and mortar/concrete sub base ...

John Whipple is right in this case, and HJ is wrong in this case.

[jadnashua]

Sometimes, you really need to tear up the concrete. It's hard to say, but the copper line (and trap?) could be corroded. The only way to find out is to tear some concrete up. You'll need to make your connection below where you currently have access in order to keep the pan height reasonable, and, in the process, you'll be able to see the condition of the piping buried there.

There are numerous ways to build a shower that work well; the method you mention with a pre-slope, liner, setting bed is a decent, traditional method. I prefer a surface membrane rather than a liner embedded below a bunch of cementitious bulk. While RedGard is capable of making your waterproof layer, I prefer some other materials. All of the tested, proven shower construction methods are described in the TCNA handbook (Tile Council of North America). If you follow any one of them, you'll have a quality, good performing, long-lasting shower.

John has some ongoing disagreements with the pros over at www.johnbridge.com. 'Shop' both sites and if you're fair, I think you'll find them quite helpful.

[johnfrwhipple]

How deep are you to the water level? From the exsiting grade?

JW

[DanAK]

How deep are you to the water level? From the existing grade?

JW

"water level" meaning ground water? That's not a problem. It's a split level house, this floor is about 4' below grade and water table is much below that. No issues with ground water.

On other thoughts, I'm pretty confident the drain itself is OK. Water is visible in the trap and when there was a shower it didn't have any troubles there. It had good drainage, no backing up. The leak was almost certainly from the original drain to fiberglass pan connection and to drain itself. It actually wasn't connected! It had an open bottom metal cup resting on the concrete (just with the weight of the shower surround)with the drain pipe coming up in the middle.The cup had a trim ring attaching it to the shower pan, but it was loose and of course no way to reach the nut underneath, which was horribly corroded anyway. I'm not sure if it was caulked at the cup to concrete/drain interface with something like oakem or just 40 years of hair and gunk. Water would have to fill the cup the 1 1/4" before spilling down the drain. I assume the cup is part of some original old drain that someone either removed the rest of somewhere along the line or possible even originally DIY installation and couldn't get to fit, as it was also off center to the drain pipe. It didn't get much use by us until fairly recently. Amazingly it didn't apparently leak much - tablespoons per shower. And due to some 'creative' framing and layout it had a ways to go before finally appearing in the next room as a wet baseboard and carpet. By the time I started ripping it open of course there was plenty of rot.

Thanks again for your replies.

[johnfrwhipple]

DanaK I mean to the water in the pipe - the water level inside of the buried P-Trap.

Is there 3" from the slab to that level? Is there 7".

Copper is pretty soft material and easily cut.



You can see an "No-Hub" fitting in the hole. That is a 1 1/2" copper to 2" ABS/PVC fitting.

[johnfrwhipple]

...John has some ongoing disagreements with the pros over at www.johnbridge.com. 'Shop' both sites and if you're fair, I think you'll find them quite helpful.

Hey Jim if you plan to enlighten the internet world with my "Issues" with the John Bridge Forum please expand a little and explain that I have asked for mis information to be removed and they won't. That I do not care for the "Verbal Digs" to Canadains on a regular basis "Eh". And my largest complaint is that with any question the manufactures guidelines are opening preached but with Kerdi and Ditra they bend the rules for some reason and this is tolerated. Jim your a big writer on John Bridges web site and you send people over there for help - you know all this. Thanks for bringing it up again so I can restate my stand. On the John Bridge web site the go to method of shower construction is Kerdi. If your not pushing it your in for a debate. If you describe any Kerdi install as being hard "Puff" your postings can disappear. These simple points make me believe that the John bridge forum site is a marketing site first and foremost - so I stopped writing over there. But again Jim you know all this.

There are helpful posters on Contractor Talk. I help out there as well. Stop by over there for a third opinion.

There are helpful posters on Garden Web. Stop by there. For a fourth.

There are helpful posters on many Flooring sites. Plumbing sites. Fine Homebuilding and on and on. But the plumbers are here on Terry's site and there is no way I will listen to a tile guy who is pushing Kerdi over a plumbing site that has plumbers watching over these threads - no way!

The question to ask yourself is why is the person helping you and what background do they have in the field of your question. Ask for a company name. Ask if they are insured. Like me you will find most of the people writing in these online forums are retired, busy pros (like me) or marketing agents working for PR firms. This is your home do your research.

Build the bathroom backwards and find out all the answers.



Here is a standard "No-Hub" fitting joining a Proline Drain with a 2" ABS line.


I use my Dremel with a metal cut off wheel to remove links of copper. This allows us to get the connection point lower. Block the inside of the pipe as these cut off wheels snap easy. I used roughly 18 cut of wheels to remove all these sections. A pipe shooter can work as well but the cut off wheels make for cleaner cuts. The next time I'm going to try and attach these cut of wheels to the Pipe Shooter.





The drain in this picture is a Baby Blue by Watts. It is cast iron and has a connection for a 2" threaded fitting. We used a 2" MPT fitting and a section of pipe. This was a high rise project so off course all the through hole needed Fire Blocking before proceeding. Hilti "Fire Bricks" are great for this application.

[johnfrwhipple]

If it was me and we had 4-6" of vertical pipe above the concrete subfloor to the top level of water in the PTrap we would be chipping concrete to lower the fitting. I use my Grinder and a diamond blade to score many lines. Careful to stay away from the 2" copper pipe. Once we have scored our lines a small cold chisel and hammer will pop these out.

Do not send downward blows when chipping. Sideways blows away from the pipe will not stress it. A 2" copper pipe set in concrete is strong. Think about the shape of an egg and a submarine. Your busting concrete not icing a cake so use care within reason - by sending the blows away from the pipe you can ramp up your agression and bang that stuff out.

Don't let your kids watch as cement flys everywhere and there ears and eyes don't need the damage. The grinder is messy. Get a mask and a shop vac. We like to add extra shop vac hose to the exhaust and swing that outside the home.

I own a 1" demo hammer (a dwalt) sometimes if we are chipping a line for a trench drain we drill many holes and then use te grinder for a clean line and the demo hammer to chip.

If your just getting the old 2" copper line to a new drain you won't need to do so much work.

When reverse planning your elevation remember that a rubber liner needs a pre-slope and that you should have about 3/4" of material at the drain side at the pre-slope stage.

Have you decided on which drain you like? Have you worked out a budget for this renovation? Are there any more changes to the fixtures?

This connection question of yours in your original post is an easy task for any plumber. Every plumber I know owns a grinder and a demo hammer.

basement shower drain

[hj]

quote; John Whipple is right in this case, and HJ is wrong in this case

I am not sure WHAT you were reading, but that is EXACTLY the same thing I said. The flange is level with the concrete, the membrane fastens to it, and the drain sticks up about 3" to give the proper subbase above the membrane.

[jadnashua]

The nominal thickness of the setting bed above the liner is around 1.5", then add the thickness of the tile and the anchoring thinset. Underneath the liner, as mentioned, about 3/4" over a slab is good, although on a slab (but not on a wooden subfloor), you can get by with less. If you use a surface membrane (like Kerdi) and their special drain, the drain would end up about that minimum of 3/4" above the slab, though, and provide the lowest floor (at least verses a traditional liner shower) as a surface membrane does not use a drain with weepholes since the membrane makes it the waterproof layer.