Have to get this well working...desperate.

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Thefixer

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My family has been without water for 4 Days. I won't bore with the details that led to this, but we HAD city water and sewer. Now we have nothing.

There is an old shallow well jet system on the property, actually one old one about 30 ft from the house and one relatively new one. The newer one is about 3 ft from the outside wall of the home. And has a 1 1/4' plastic line that tees into a 2 1/2' casing about 3ft underground. There was an old 1/2 horse pump inside the house with an obvious crack in the housing, I'm assuming freeze damage. I dug down to where the suction line tees into the casing drilled out the concrete wall and replaced the suction line with a new one from the pump to the tee.

I purchased a new 1/2 horse pump (A simer cast iron jet pump) It was the best I could do with my current budget. There is a relatively new fiberglass "well mate" pressure tank. It looks like it was relatively recently put in, along with the rest of the plumbing. It is all PVC tied to galvanized pipe. I'm guessing the setup can't be more than 10 years old.

I can't get the pump primed, It gurgles and bubbles and builds up some air pressure (no gage not sure how much) but no water. I have a tee with a barbed fitting going to the supply side, and the tank, and a vertical rise of about 6" with a cap for filling and priming.

I have no access to running water, so I'm trying to prime with the manual fill method. I fill to the top of the cap till overflowing, replace cap, turn pump on, no more than 2 minutes at a time. It gurgles and builds up some pressure, but no water.

I have since disconnected the discharge side from the main house plumbing and attached a ball valve on the end, so I can eliminate possible issues with clogged pipes or a bad pressure tank. That way i can release a bit of air manually as the pump tries to prime. No luck. I've tried 2 dozen times and used 30 gallons of store bought water.

I don't know when the well was used last, but I do know it serves a 2 family residence, 2 baths 2 kitchens etc. We have a shallow water table here, It's a lagoon area near a lake, with sandy soil. I can't imagine the well is dry but how do I know?

What do I do next? I'm desperate, have to provide for a family of 4 , who haven't had a real shower in 4 days!

Type of pump?
Submersible________
Two wire (no control)________
Three wire (control box)______
Wire Size_________ Wire Length________
or
Jet Pump (above ground)__yes_______
One or two pipes down the well_one pipe___

Size of Pump?
Motor Horsepower?___1/2_______
Pump Model #______simer 2805E-02________
Date Pump Installed__yesterday________

Pumping from?
Cistern tank___________
Pond, lake, river________
Water Well______yes______
Depth of well____?______
Depth to water___?______
Pump Setting__________
Pipe Size_____1 1/4" suction pipe,plastic____"
Drop Pipe Material
PVC________
Steel_______
Poly____yes____

Well Recovery Rate____?___gpm
Well Casing Diameter__2 1/2_____â€
Rock Well__________ Sand Well__________ Other______________
Date Well Drilled____________

Well Casing Material
PVC________ Steel____yes_____ Other_________


Pressure Tank?
Bladder or diaphragm tank (one pipe to tank)____yes______
Size or model of tank____well mate 20 gallon________
Air charge in top of tank, with pump off and water drained__30__________PSI
(check with car tire gauge)
or
Plain Hydro Pneumatic tank (two pipes to tank, one in and one out)_________
Size of tank________________

Pressure Switch Setting?
On 30, off 50 ____yes____
On 40, off 60_________
Other_______________

Pump Control Method?
Cycle Stop Valve model #_________
Variable speed control #__________
Pump Start Relay (sprinkler timer, no tank)__________
Manually turned on and off____________

Pump Protection
Cycle Sensor_________
Pumptec_____________
Low pressure cutoff switch (lever on side)__________
Other_______________

Filters or Softeners______________
Before or after pressure tank_______
Type of filter___________________
Bypass available________________

Water Used For?
House Use_______ Number of baths____2___ Number of People__4______
High Flow Showers_______gpm?
Plus/Or
Irrigation with timers________
Irrigation with hoses________
Heat Pump______gpm?


Problems Experienced
No Water______yes___________
Water only part time________
Water at all times but weak_____
Air in water_______________
Pressure surging___________
Water Hammer (noise)______
Too Much pressure_________
Other____________________


Pump makes clicking or buzzing sounds________
No Sounds______________
Pressure gauge reading________psi
Other_______no pressure gage_____________________________

Do you have, and know how to use
an Ampmeter and Voltmeter__________________

Describe Problem__________________________.....


That's the best I can do.
 

LLigetfa

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Do you have any idea where that 30 gallons of water disappeared to? It had to go somewhere and figuring that out might lead you to the source of the problem. If you think it slipped past the footvalve, you could install a temporary checkvalve between the wellhead and the pump. Also, you say you get only air pressure, so determining where the air comes from might lead you to the source of the problem which is sounding like a leak in the pipe between the footvalve and the pump. Does the air pressure hold after the pump is turned off?

You really need to put a pressure gauge on the line. Also, the ballvalve should be placed on the outlet side of the tank Tee so that the tank can still take water and give some back to the pump. Lastly, it would help for there to be a high point where air can slowly be bled off.
 

LLigetfa

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I dug down to where the suction line tees into the casing drilled out the concrete wall and replaced the suction line with a new one from the pump to the tee.
A Tee has 3 openings and the line from the well only needs an elbow which has 2 openings, so I'm curious where the other side of the Tee goes to. If it is a riser that is capped, that might be another place to prime from.

A WellMate bladder tank uses a particular bag method whereby the water goes between the bag and the tank versus the balloon type where the water goes inside the balloon and the air is trapped between the balloon and the tank. You may ask where I'm going with this... the balloon type can easily burst if there is not enough air, but the bag simply collapses. That means you can let out a lot of air with little risk of damage to the bladder. With less air in the tank, the tank can provide a reserve of water that the pump can then use to get going as the air will rise to the top and the air pressure will push the water back to re-prime the pump.
 

Thefixer

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Thanks.

In the well, there is a tee one part is a barbed fitting the polly pump line attaches to, the other one goes under ground and the third is a riser that is capped about a foot above ground.

I did suspect a bad foot valve, so I did add a check valve between the pump and the outside wall. Still no luck priming.

The pump seems to hold air after I stop it. I checked all my fittings with soap, they are tight.

The ball valve is on the discharge side at the end of flexible hose so I can, in theory, open and close it to let air out.

With the new check valve, I'm not losing water, I am priming from a riser that is teed off from the discharge hole, with a cap on it. I'm closing the ball valve, opening this cap, filling with water until overflow, replacing cap and turning on the pump. When I open the ball valve air comes out under pressure, still no prime though.

Any more ideas? I have to get this working. My marriage depends on it, only kind of joking.


Edit: Okay, i put a check valve and a pressure gauge on. the pressure gage rises to about 35psi with the pump running. But it does not hold when i turn the pump off. Does the gauge only read water pressure, not sure.

When I let air out via the ball valve, I lose pressure, then it climbs slowly up again. No prime, no water.

Is it possible the well is just dry?? I cant get the damn cap off the 2 1/2" riser, rusted on pretty good. Thinking about a sawzall and a rubber cap. I can't imagine the well is dry, please don't let it be dry. I will be seriously screwed. Like I said, we live next to a lagoon, the water table can't be very low.
 
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LLigetfa

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If you can slip a length of pex down the casing next to the intake pipe and blow some air into it, with a bit of math, you can determine how far down the water is. Just pump air into the pex line until the pressure evens out and you should see .43 PSI per foot of water. So.. if you shoved down 30 feet of pex and are seeing 4.3 PSI of air, the water level would be around 20 feet down.

I would disconnect the Tee from the house and pull up the footvalve. Then you can test for leaks and put on a new footvalve if there is water within reach.
 

Thefixer

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" Just pump air into the pex line until the pressure evens out and you should see .43 PSI per foot of water"

I'm not clear on this, pump air into the pex line with what? What do you mean "till it evens out"?

Even if my foot valve is bad, I have a check valve up above, won't that work. thats how it was set up originally. I'm going to have to do a LOT of digging to disconnect at the tee at the well, it's over 3' down, in sandy soil.
 

LLigetfa

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If you have access to the top of the well casing and there is room to slip a small pipe down beside the intake pipe, you can use the method I described to measure the water level.

You can even go low-tech and just try blowing into the tube with your mouth. It takes a lot of effort to even blow 2 PSI so if it's hard to blow, you know the end of the tube is in water. I doubt you could blow bubbles 5 feet below the water level, so that would get you a ballpark measurement.

You would have to blow 4.3 PSI to make bubbles come out the end of the pipe 10 feet under water. If you put a Schrader valve on the end of the pipe and pumped air into it, the pressure would only go so high until all the water is out of the tube and it starts making bubbles. That's what I mean about it evening out. Stick a tire gauge on the end of the Schrader and the pressure you read will tell you how many feet of water there is above the end of the pipe. The formula is .43 PSI per foot.
 

Thefixer

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Okay, had to pull the whole riser off at the tee, after a lot of digging. Now I am really confused

It's not what I was expecting, there is no down tube/suction line. Just the casing itself, so the casing is actually the pressure tube as well. So...no foot valve? I don't understand this setup.

I didn't have 20ft of pex or a schrader valve to check the water. So I dropped a fishing line with a washer on it and lowered it till I hit bottom, then measured. Then I took another line and attached it to a small fishing bobber, lowered it till I got slack and measured (yeah I know, I should patent this method) The measurements were within a foot of each other, about 17ft

I guess I'm screwed, no water in the well, not enough anyway.

Old lady will not be happy.
 

LLigetfa

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Too bad it does not look like it's going your way. Water at 17 feet in and of itself is within reach of a shallow well pump but the well bottoming out at 18 feet is bad news. One foot is not enough to allow for the cone of depression. My guess is that there may be a sand point on the end of that 2.5" pipe and no footvalve. That would explain the in-line checkvalve. So, assuming the well can make some water, either the cone of depression is letting in air before the pump can evacuate all the air from the pipe or there is a leak.

Have you probed the other older well to see where the water table is at? If it too is at 17 feet, you just might have to drive the casing down a little further, assuming the well can make water. One way to test is to put a lot of water down into the well. Generally, a well that takes water, makes water provided it's deep enough to get below the cone of depression.
 

LLigetfa

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One possibility is that the casing goes down much further but the inside got all crusted up with minerals at the water line. Another possibility is that the well at one time had a packer ejector that broke off when it got stuck on the mineral ring at the water line.
 
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