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Thread: Converting from jet pump to submersible

  1. #16
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    My advice is still to get a couple more estimates before even paying these guys for the mistakes they have already made. You may not of needed a new pump in the first place.

    bob...

  2. #17
    DIY Senior Member rshackleford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob NH
    With a properly installed disconnect, you can use a single pole switch to control the pump by interrupting either hot wire. You can wire the switch in at the disconnect, or at the motor if it is accessible.
    I spoke with Franklin about this and they want both interupted.
    rshackleford

  3. #18
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    The reason for that is safety. If you only break one wire the other is always hot. Also, if the pump motor has a slight ground, the motor can be damaged by a low voltage condition and they certainly wouldn't want that to happen in the first year.

    Personally I think Franklin shot themselves in the foot when they started selling to all distributors instead of manufacturers. And they also bought out Jacuzzi and are now selling a pump line of their own.

    Look for a bunch of Italian and other sub motors to be offered by many pump manufacturers in the near future. As a matter of fact, Myers has already introduced their new sub motor and control box.
    bob...

  4. #19
    DIY Senior Member rshackleford's Avatar
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    Yeah, we have been keeping an eye on that as well. We have been big fans of FE for a long time. We really like there CP units and have found the Monodrive to be pretty versatile. We pretty much stick to Goulds with a little bit of Grundfos. We havenít used any Grundfos motors other than the 3Ē ones. I have also seen that Pentair is introducing a control box (this might be Meyers I know the Pentair and IT own a lot of other pump companies).

    I donít expect that our company will go away from FE because of their good service and technical help as well as the constancy in their products. Part of our high prices is backed up by the fact that we stock as much as some of the wholesalers in the area. I think that if we moved into other lines of pumps and motors that would be just that much more overhead and inventory.

    How do you feel about other manufactures of motors and controls? Will the other motors be compatible? Will control boxes have the same shape and be interchangeable with FE? What do you think that this is going to do to the pump market?
    rshackleford

  5. #20
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    I'm not too sure about the compatability issue yet. I do have the new Pentair boxes on the shelf and do like them. The two horse is the only one I have looked at in the higher horsepower range. It is nice and has a contactor unlike the Franklin. The one horse box is very much like the Franklin but has a few needed changes that I like.

    I have the new Pentair motor also (2hp) and we installed one last week. Seems to be doing fine.

    If another company want's to sell motors here, they will have to be NEMA and will fit other pumps just like the Franklin I would think.

    The Dab pump which I also sell is an Italian pump company and is owned by Grundfos. Their motor is NEMA and will interchange with no problem.

    bob...

  6. #21
    DIY Junior Member amateur plumber's Avatar
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    Default Resurrecting old thead: need similar help on well conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    If you are talking your cost, those figures are way high compared to mine. I buy from a Gould's distributor. I would pay about $275+/- for the pump. Since it is a jet being replaced, the tubing shouldn't be more than a 200' roll of 1" 160 PSI PE tubing. A 1.25" x 1" reducer ($3?) for the outlet of the pump. That's 3 1" x 1" barbed brass male adapters ($3 each?) and 6 hose clamps (I buy boxes of them) including the male for the outlet of the pitless. A torque arrestor ($8?), 3 wire splice kit ($3? and I have the extra splice leftover), and maybe 250' of 12/3 w/grnd (I buy 500-1000' reels). That would be maybe another $200 and that's higher than I think it would be.

    If the jet is a shallow well model, the above are greatly reduced in length and cost. And I don't know if a new pressure tank is in the quote or not. I looked and he says "relocate the tank", not replace it. That would be simple due to running new tubing from it out to the well anyway.

    The pitless costs me $50-$80.

    The last of these I did was $1800+/- for a 1/2 hp 2 wire (no control box) 10 gpm Gould's. New Gould's V60 tank ($90), tank tee package ($48; switch and brass nipple, PR valve, cast tee, gauge). And I moved the tank closer to the wall and that requires changing the outlet plumbing and I always add a new ball valve. Unless the excavating is more than a few spade fulls, I don't do excavating but can get 2-3 guys with mini excavators in for less than $500 to dig down 5-6' and from the casing back to the cellar wall 3-6" deep. If the casing was buried, the hole is a bit bigger and deeper (frost line is 30"+) and a 6" Fernco and a 10' piece of sch 40 PVC if I don't have a shorter piece here and then a casing cap ($13?) and 2 wire nuts. Maybe 3 rolls of tape (I buy a dozen pack) and 6-8 wire guards at about $1.25 each (I buy by the case). I grossed about a grand on that job. I am the pump tech, plumber etc. and my wife is the helper. We do that type job in about 6-7 hours. I've attached a pictures of one.

    A google search for float switches 230, I don't remember what URL:
    http://tinyurl.com/9n96a

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates
    I'm hoping to get some advice on what I am doing, which looks pretty much exactly what Gary has done here. I'm attaching a photo showing my existing well cap / seal. Hard to measure exactly, but it looks like the seal is 4" diameter. I want to convert the existing shallow well with jet pump to a submersible pump. The galvanized pipes are all 50+ years old and clearly corroding. My next step (I think) is to remove the seal, but I only find one corroded bolt on the top of the seal. Would I use a saw to simply cut the seal off, add the fernco etc with the new pump? Thanks for the help!
    Name:  well seal with casing.jpg
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  7. #22
    In the Trades Texas Wellman's Avatar
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    No, you can't cut off the seal. There is drop pipe hanging from the seal that you will have to account for.

    I can't tell much from that picture, but what I would do is cut the piping away from the well head first. Then I would use my pump hoist (12,000# capacity) and see if I could get the well seal/adapter to budge. If that didn't work I would take a sledge hammer to the seal and start beating.

    Sooner or later something will give.

    Whatever you do, don't use a furnco type coupling to seal the old casing to the new riser like that picture on the first page. They're not rated for pressure and I would hate to risk letting contaminants into the casing after you bury it. Use a pressure rated connection like a dresser coupling.

    Good luck.

  8. #23
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    Thanks Texas Wellman. Agreed that the first step would be to cut off the pipe running to the home. In the picture you see the seal with a pipe running down the page. That is the pipe going to the home. There is a small copper tube on the left side of that that vents the well. That copper tube likewise goes inside the home.

    But, I don't follow why a can't cut around the casing to remove the seal and drop pipe. Won't those just pull straight up and out of the shaft? If I break out the seal with a sledge, don't I risk having the drop pipe fall down into the shaft?

    Again, thanks for helping out a newbie, and for the pressure rated coupling advice.

  9. #24
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    You may not be able to get a 4" pump down that old casing.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    You may not be able to get a 4" pump down that old casing.
    If that is the case, would you recommend a 3 inch pump? I see where Grundfos makes a 3 inch 1/2 HP pump 5SQE-90 that would do the job.

  11. #26
    In the Trades Texas Wellman's Avatar
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    The problem with the Grundfos 3" pump is that they have to spin at an extremely high rpm in order to make the gpm and pressure required. Something like 11,000 rpm vs. 3450 for a std. submersible pump. If the pump has any sort of solids like sand or grit pass through it will wear the internals down much quicker than a std. 4" pump.

    So, to answer your question, I would recommend the 3" pump if you cannot get a regular 4" pump in the casing. The 3" pump costs about double the 4".

    Also, make sure you only hang the pump on galvanized metal drop pipe. You need the strongest possible drop pipe because what goes in may not necessarily come out easy. Going with galvanized drop pipe may be the difference between getting the pump back out one day or not. If you don't care about getting the pump out eventually then use whatever material you feel comfortable with. For example, if you plan on drilling a new well within 5-10 years then I wouldn't worry about it too much, except for the fact that the old one really does need to be properly plugged and abandoned in order to protect the aquifer.

    Post up some more pictures, I would like to see how this one turns out. You'd better hurry too, I would imagine that the ground is starting to freeze up there, or will be soon.

  12. #27
    In the Trades Texas Wellman's Avatar
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    Oh, and one last thing. If it were me I would find a good ~5 HP compressor and try to blow the well (might need bigger compressor). You need to try and surge the well with air for several reasons.

    First, you need to verify how much water the well is making. Around here anything less than 10-15 gpm is considered a dry hole and indicate a plugged screen, which is common on older galvanized wells. You may not have a screen, but I am not familiar with your area and geology so there is no way for me to know.

    Also, surging the well will clear any excess debris that has built up over time. Running a pump normal does not really allow you to agitate the entire well like a good air compressor will. Surge the well, make sure it blows good clean water, and check for sand or grit. You will probably notice discolored water or even rust flakes coming out but eventually they should clear.

    I was able to jet the well (air surge, blow etc) with a small 5.5 HP compressor no problem. It had been sitting dormant for about 20 years. For a 3-4" well you would probably need a bigger compressor to get it to really work well. We normally used a 185 CFM tow behind for 4" wells. It all depends on how well you want to surge it etc.

    Good luck.
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    Last edited by Texas Wellman; 11-21-2011 at 03:31 PM.

  13. #28
    Porky Cutter,MGWC Porky's Avatar
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    I would rectify the source of the problem. . . being electrical! Then I would contract a certified pump installer to diagnose the problem (many plumbers aren't qualified electricians or pump installers). Being a licensed plumber doesn't mean the person knows anything about well pumps. Many installers know very little about Jet Pumps so they recommend installing a submersible pump. Submersible pumps are simple to install, just set it and forget it.
    I recommend finding a National Ground Water Certified pump installer (CWD/PI) http://dnrc.mt.gov/wrd/water_op/bwwc...onbrochure.pdf. They can make a qualified decision to your needs. Most are reasonable.
    Porky Cutter, MGWC
    (Master Ground Water Consultant)

  14. #29
    Porky Cutter,MGWC Porky's Avatar
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    Looking at the photo of the top of the well tells me that you (or the contractor) will have to extend the casing to at least 12" above ground. In your case this my not be simple because in addition a pitless adapter will have to be installed. This isn't a job for a plumber and I doubt that by the price quoted, your plumber really doesn't want the job! He'll probably sub contract a qualified/licensed driller/pump installer to do the job. I'd get a quote from a licensed driller/pump installer!
    Porky Cutter, MGWC
    (Master Ground Water Consultant)

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