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Thread: Aquastat(?) on Forced Hot Water Weil-McClain(about 25 years old)

  1. #16
    DIY Junior Member chapchap70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    actually on a call for heat the boiler will very often run to the high limit setting.

    The coil in a Weil Mclain P366 or 466 is only rated at 2.5 gpm continuous draw and if there is any scaleing ( and after 20 years or so you can bet there is ) that figure changes considerably.

    I have never run into any technicians that didn't understand how the differential works.

    Maybe I'm not a technician because I also deliver. I had a hard time understanding this and maybe I still don't. The guy that trained me said the low setting turns the burner on and the high setting turns the burner off. I know that is wrong. I turned on the heat leaving the settings alone and the burner seemed to turn off at the low end of the high (10 degrees below 190) limit but my aquastat and gauge are not exactly the same. My understanding is that the hi limit differential is fixed at 10 degrees. I hear heating guys trying to explain aquastats to people a lot and see it on forums.


    Looking at the oil delivery spreadsheet, it looks like 300 gallons got used between 3/10 and 10/18 which is over 7 months. Most likely, some of that in March and April was used for heating so it doesn't seem that abnormal. Maybe you can try lowering the low setting of your aquastat to 140 or 150 if you haven't done so already and see if you still have enough hot water.


    With a gallon of heating oil having the BTU content of about 40.5 kwh, the equivalent price of electricity at 18 cents per kwh is about $7.29 per gallon. At 40% efficiency for the tankless coil, water heating costs might be similar to electric but the boiler should maintain 110 or 120 degrees in the summer anyway so you might as well use it for hot water. With the electric water heater recovery rates at between 20 and 25 gallons per hour, you might not have enough hot water to take the third 2.5 gallons per minute 10 minute shower in a row with a 40 gallon tank.
    Last edited by chapchap70; 08-02-2011 at 10:59 PM.

  2. #17
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Why should the boiler maintain 110 - 12- degrees in the summer? Oh, because you think it will leak? The Weil McLain P series boilers use rubber O rings between the sections. If anything is leaking when the boiler is cold it needs to be repaired. Maintaining temperature is a huge waste of money.

    Yes, the high limit on most Honeywell aquastats has a fixed 10 degree differential. You need to have some differential or the burner would short cycle. During a peak heat demand the boiler will and should bounce off the high limit frequently.

    The low limit maintains boiler temperature for domestic hot water and has nothing to do with a call for heat except that the heating circulator will not operate until low limit has been reached. In other words if the low is set to 160, the heating circulator will not run until the boiler hits 160. This keeps cold return water from cooling the domestic coil and giving you a blast of cold water in the shower.

    If this was my boiler I would:

    1- have it thouroughly cleaned, inspected and the burner professionally set up and combustion tested
    2- have a Super-Stor or similar indirect water heater installed
    3- get rid of the old Enertrol analog re-set controller and install either an Intellicon, Taco PC700 or Tekmar re-set controller.

    Payback should be around 5 years.
    Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 08-03-2011 at 05:34 AM.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  3. #18
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    What Tom said.

    In addition- the low limit also protects the boiler from operating in a destructive condensing mode, where exhuast gases condense corrosive liquids inside the boiler (or flue). For most oil boilers 140F is the low limit before it can become self-destructive- maintaining it at 110F all summer isn't doing your boiler any favors, since it guarantees that all burns are condensing.

    Whether an outdoor reset approach buys you anything depends a bit on the amount of radiation/baseboard you have. In many cases (especially in homes that have undergone air-sealing and insulation & window improvements) the radiation is overbuilt to where it can deliver design-day heat just fine at 140F, but you can't run an oil boiler there anyway, so outdoor reset would be essentially useless. The Intellicon HW+ takes a different approach, maximizing the temperature hysteresis on the boiler/system's thermal mass when there's a significant heat load, but purging that temp down to the boiler-minimum when there is a new call for heat before firing up the burner, and intelligently anticipating the thermostat being satisifed based on the recent burn history, shutting down the burner ahead of time to be able to "park" the boiler at a lower than maximum temp between burns for lower standby loss. It tends to maximize the lengths of burns (no short-cycling losses) while minimizing standby idle losses. The more radiation you have and the larger the boiler oversizing factor, the better this works relative to an outdoor reset approach.

    Depending on where you expect oil prices go over the next decade, it might be worth thinking about mini-split heat pumps as supplemental heat too. At 15F they all run a coefficint of performance (COP) around 2.5, and at 30F & up they're 3.0+. A 2x oversized 85% efficiency boiler runs about 75-80% efficincy as-used, so for that 138000BTU/gallon only 110000 BTUs are delivered to the house (best case), which is the equivalent of 32kwh as resistance heat, not 40.5, so at 18cent electricity you're really looking at being equivlant to ~$5.76/gallon oil. But with a mini-split assuming a seasonal average of even 2.5 (which it would get, in Long Island), every kwh of power in results in 2.5kwh of heat out, so that's equivalant $5.76/2.5= $2.30/gallon oil burned in a pretty-good old school boiler with some updated controls. A 2-ton (24000BTU/hr) mini-split is less than $5K, installed.

    Mini splits works better in homes with open floor plans, since it's a point-source heat, but multi-splits add about $1200-1500/head to the base price. If it can support the entire load most of the time, setting up the boiler's thermostat a couple degrees lower, than the mini-split it won't kick on until the mini-split can't keep up, which would usually be when the outdoor temps are lowest, and the COP the lowest (they're all under 2 at 5F and below). In situations where they can work the savings can be substantial, even at 18cent electricity- remember, the COP is 3+ at 30F, and over 4 at 45F, which are temps where the boiler's net efficiency is falling off rapidly due to low duty cycle on the burner. During the shoulder seasons the heat pump can take your oil consumption down to water-heating-only levels. This guy's experience is probably better than some, but it's not rare.

  4. #19
    DIY Junior Member GregoryR's Avatar
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    Why should the boiler maintain 110 - 12- degrees in the summer? Oh, because you think it will leak? The Weil McLain P series boilers use rubber O rings between the sections. If anything is leaking when the boiler is cold it needs to be repaired. Maintaining temperature is a huge waste of money.
    I know you were responding to somebody else, but just FYI this was turned off for a whole week this June and the only leak was from the...ahh..copper pipe on the side? If you know what I mean?

    If this was my boiler I would:

    1- have it thouroughly cleaned, inspected and the burner professionally set up and combustion tested
    2- have a Super-Stor or similar indirect water heater installed
    3- get rid of the old Enertrol analog re-set controller and install either an Intellicon, Taco PC700 or Tekmar re-set controller.

    Payback should be around 5 years.
    1. It does get professionally cleaned before each heating season, yes.

    2.Does this save oil? Or just give more hot water?

    3. That sounds reasonable.

    so for that 138000BTU/gallon only 110000 BTUs are delivered to the house (best case), which is the equivalent of 32kwh as resistance heat, not 40.5, so at 18cent electricity you're really looking at being equivlant to ~$5.76/gallon oil.
    I was looking at two HWH on Sears.com:

    1. http://c.shld.net/assets/eg/116435.pdf

    (It says about 4773 kwH/ year. I believe this is based on a family of four that washes in hot water. Lets say we'd use 4500 kwH)
    That is $810/year.


    2. http://c.shld.net/assets/eg/796445.pdf

    (It says about 1856 kwH/year, so let's say we'd use 1600.)
    That is $288/year! Is this what you guys meant at all my mini pump? http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...&blockType=G14




    Thanks again.

  5. #20
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    Going with a Super Stor both saves oil, AND gives more hot water. It saves oil by not needing to keep the boiler hot (== high standby losses) and gives more hot water by being able to deliver 100% of the burner's output to the hot water by suppressing calls for heat from the zones during hot water heating burns. Embedded coils in boilers are typically ~30-35% efficiency some more, someless in hot-water-heating only mode, so even a resistance-type cheapo electric HW heater will likely prove cheaper than what you've got. Take the time to understand the results for boiler #12 in tankless (embedded coil) vs. indirect (like a SuperStor) detailed in Appendix 12 of this study:

    http://www.nora-oilheat.org/site20/u...ciencyTest.pdf

    By going to an indirect and being able to set the low limit to 130F rather than 160F the water heating efficiency more than doubled! This will vary from boiler to boiler, but the savings are always substantial.

    A mini-split heat pump is a space heating/cooling device, not to be confused with a heat-pump water heater like the GE in your #2 link. During the heating season a heat-pump HW heater is pulling heat out of the house which has to be replaced by the heating system. It'll use about half as much electricity as a resistance-electric tank, but it'll add to the heating bill. A mini-split heat pump is a ductless split air-conditioner with a reversible loop to be able to heat or cool. The interior heads look like this:



    The exterior units look like this:



    Both the interior air-blower and the exterior compressor have high efficiency variable speed motors, and with no ducts or air handlers the efficiencies are quite high. (Look at the HSPF rating which isn't a perfect way to compare them, but it's better than nothing. An HSPF of 8.5 is good, 10+ is better.) They're most efficient if you "set and forget" rather than try to use a setback strategy, since they're most-efficient at low and mid compressor speeds, so anything gained by the setback is eaten up by the lower efficiency of being maxed out during the recovery period.

    Even though it's 4x the money up front, the payback on a mini-split will be much better than with a heat-pump water heater, and an indirect will give you far more hot water capacity than any type of electric tank. Assuming you can get at least 40% water-heating mode efficiency out of your boiler with a SuperStor you'll get 0.4x 138000= 49200 BTU/gallon out of the boiler, and with a 0.90EF resistance type electric tank you'll average ~0.9 x 3412= 2047BTU/kwh. At 18 cent electricity that's about the same as $4.30 oil with the SuperStore so for the time being it's cheaper to heat hot water with oil (especially since you can probably be bumping on 50% efficiency with the SuperStor.) With the heat pump water heater you'd use half the elecricity but also be getting the other half the heat from 75% efficiency space-heating oil 3/4 of the year, so the ROI is very small. Heat pump water heaters are a much better deal in cooling dominated climates, since it reduces the cooling load of the house.

    By comparison, a mini-split heat pump takes a huge chunk out of the space heating bill if set up to provide the lion's share of the total space heating, since at 18cent electricity it's like burning $2.30 oil in your boiler during the winter, and more like $1.75 oil during the spring & fall, which (last time I checked) is a HUGE discount over current heating oil pricing. In places with cheap electricity and bigger heat loads (such as MN or WI) the payback on a mini-split can be 3 years or less, but a bit longer much of NY/CT/MA where the electricity is 2x the price of what it is in much of the upper midwest.

  6. #21
    DIY Junior Member GregoryR's Avatar
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    Ah yes, I've seen those in hotels. So how does the inside connect with the outside if there is no duct? That looks like a really cool idea for heating/cooling in general. With a <1000 sq ft year round living space that could probably provide everything.

  7. #22
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    There are two refrigerant lines and a low-voltage cable. On some, the lines come precharged with quick connects for quicker/easier installation. The compressor is outside, the evaporator and fan are inside on the wall.
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  8. #23
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    In tight well insulated homes in southern new england climates it's pretty easy to run the whole thing on a single mini-split even with 2500' houses. The higher the whole-wall R values are, the less temperature difference you'll feel between the rooms with the head vs those without, and there are mini-splits can come as big as 4 tons (48KBTU/hr), which would be ~1.5x oversized for my 2000' + house in MA (3500', if you count the insulated semi-conditioned basement that never drops below 65F.) A 2-ton unit would work for me as an ~80% of design-load solution though, as it very well might for you.

    The fact that your burner puts out a gazillion BTU/hr doesn't mean that your actual outside design temperature load is anywhere near that. If you gave us your zip code and the annual gallons numbers for weather data it's pretty easy to come up with a realistic upper bound on what your 97.5th or 99th percentile heat load is based on gallons per heating degree day. The very smallest of oil boilers have ~60KBTU/hour output, which is about 2x oversized for my current heat load, and MANY homes that have had insulation & air-tightness upgrades since the 1978 oil crisis are heated with boilers & furnaces 4x or more oversized for the actual load. Even homes built in the mid 1980s typically have 2.5-3x oversized heating plants for no good reason (who needs to be good down to -75F to -150F?), resulting in a significant hit in as-used efficiency.

    If you're on the natural gas grid there's scant economic incentive of going the mini-split route (unless you're adding the air-conditioning, in which case the cost of going with a heat pump as opposed to cooling-only mini-split is negligible) but for those homes heated with oil & propane burners at current fuel pricing (or resistance electric heating in any US market) the economics of mini-splits are pretty compelling. It's only since the development of inverter-drive scroll compressor R410A refrigerant technology that they could work that efficiently at cool Long Island winter temps, but the better ones now still have a COP of 1.5-ish even at -10F. Heat pumps of the 1990s or earlier usually crapped out efficiency-wise at temps as high as +25F, and were pretty useless below +20F. Ductless R410A mini-splits are still delivering OK efficiency at +10F, if not so great at -10F. The 99th percentile design temps for L.I. are typically in the teens- it's not a terrible fit.

  9. #24
    DIY Junior Member GregoryR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    In tight well insulated homes in southern new england climates it's pretty easy to run the whole thing on a single mini-split even with 2500' houses. The higher the whole-wall R values are, the less temperature difference you'll feel between the rooms with the head vs those without, and there are mini-splits can come as big as 4 tons (48KBTU/hr), which would be ~1.5x oversized for my 2000' + house in MA (3500', if you count the insulated semi-conditioned basement that never drops below 65F.) A 2-ton unit would work for me as an ~80% of design-load solution though, as it very well might for you.

    The fact that your burner puts out a gazillion BTU/hr doesn't mean that your actual outside design temperature load is anywhere near that. If you gave us your zip code and the annual gallons numbers for weather data it's pretty easy to come up with a realistic upper bound on what your 97.5th or 99th percentile heat load is based on gallons per heating degree day. The very smallest of oil boilers have ~60KBTU/hour output, which is about 2x oversized for my current heat load, and MANY homes that have had insulation & air-tightness upgrades since the 1978 oil crisis are heated with boilers & furnaces 4x or more oversized for the actual load. Even homes built in the mid 1980s typically have 2.5-3x oversized heating plants for no good reason (who needs to be good down to -75F to -150F?), resulting in a significant hit in as-used efficiency.

    If you're on the natural gas grid there's scant economic incentive of going the mini-split route (unless you're adding the air-conditioning, in which case the cost of going with a heat pump as opposed to cooling-only mini-split is negligible) but for those homes heated with oil & propane burners at current fuel pricing (or resistance electric heating in any US market) the economics of mini-splits are pretty compelling. It's only since the development of inverter-drive scroll compressor R410A refrigerant technology that they could work that efficiently at cool Long Island winter temps, but the better ones now still have a COP of 1.5-ish even at -10F. Heat pumps of the 1990s or earlier usually crapped out efficiency-wise at temps as high as +25F, and were pretty useless below +20F. Ductless R410A mini-splits are still delivering OK efficiency at +10F, if not so great at -10F. The 99th percentile design temps for L.I. are typically in the teens- it's not a terrible fit.
    According to NOAA's heating degree day chart by month(for my town):

    Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Annual
    27 62 231 555 882 1339 1504 1280 1091 696 352 90 8109

    A high pressure natural gas line does run under the town, but town officials have been using that as an excuse and refuse to do something to build a substation. So we have no natural gas in sight. Hope this and my chart of oil usage on the page before helps.
    Last edited by GregoryR; 08-04-2011 at 12:17 PM.

  10. #25
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    Gregory- somehow I'd gotten you confused with the original poster from Long Island (as sometimes happens when you take over a thread. ;-) )

    It looks like you used ~650 gallons of oil in all of 2010. With a zip code we can look up something more accurate better than the 25 year HDD averages from the NOAA, but for the time being we'll use that. A zip code would also be necessary determining the outside heating design temperature (which is not function of HDD) , but for the time being we'll use -10F (about the 97.5th percentile design temp for Millinocket.)

    Assuming your boiler isn't a new-school lower-mass smart-controls system, with 3x oversizing and and an as-used AFUE of 75%, you're delivering:

    (.75x 138,000= )103.5KBTU/gallon.

    Over 8109HDD (base 65) that means the house needed (650 x 103.5K=) 67275 KBTU

    or (67275K/8109=) 8.3KBTU per heating degree-day.

    That's (8.3K/24 hours=) 0.346 KBTU per heating degree-hour, which is the same as 346 BTU/degree-hour.

    With a design temp of -10F, you're looking at 65-(-10)= 75 heating degrees, so the heat load at design temp will be (at most) about

    75 x 346= 25,950 (which would indicate a fairly small &/or a very tight house.) If rather than 3x oversized, yours is a perfectly right-sized 85% boiler you'd be looking at a -10F heat load of 29,500BTU/hr- call it 30K.

    At -10F the Mitsubishi Hyper Heating (aka "Mr. Slim") units put out about 73% of their fully rated heating load, with a COP of ~1.5, so to do the whole thing with a mini-split would take a 3+ ton unit, but a 2-ton would handle your average load just fine. (Other vendors have somewhat different very-low temp performance, but both Daikin & Fujitsu make units that work fine at -10F as well.) The mean January temp in Millinocket is ~15F, a temp at which most mini-splits are running COPs of ~2.5, and electricity costs in most of Maine is about half of what it is on Long Island, so the dollar savings for YOU may be quite significant compared to those of a L.I. resident. During warmer months the average COP will rise, making it an even better deal, with an even larger share of the total load handled by the mini-split, but your seasonal average will still likely be about 2.5-ish since most of the heating energy will be used when it's under 20F, at COPs under 3.

    Assuming you're paying 10cents/kwh and averaging a COP of 2.5, you're getting 8530BTU of space heating for every kwh, so using the 75% oil-boiler example that's a gallons-to-kwy equivalance to 103,500/8530= 12kwh, which costs you a $1.20, which is a third the price of your last 100 gallons, half your 2009 average. Have you seen $1.20 oil anytime in the past 20 years?

  11. #26
    DIY Junior Member GregoryR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Gregory- somehow I'd gotten you confused with the original poster from Long Island (as sometimes happens when you take over a thread. ;-) )

    It looks like you used ~650 gallons of oil in all of 2010. With a zip code we can look up something more accurate better than the 25 year HDD averages from the NOAA, but for the time being we'll use that. A zip code would also be necessary determining the outside heating design temperature (which is not function of HDD) , but for the time being we'll use -10F (about the 97.5th percentile design temp for Millinocket.)

    Assuming your boiler isn't a new-school lower-mass smart-controls system, with 3x oversizing and and an as-used AFUE of 75%, you're delivering:

    (.75x 138,000= )103.5KBTU/gallon.

    Over 8109HDD (base 65) that means the house needed (650 x 103.5K=) 67275 KBTU

    or (67275K/8109=) 8.3KBTU per heating degree-day.

    That's (8.3K/24 hours=) 0.346 KBTU per heating degree-hour, which is the same as 346 BTU/degree-hour.

    With a design temp of -10F, you're looking at 65-(-10)= 75 heating degrees, so the heat load at design temp will be (at most) about

    75 x 346= 25,950 (which would indicate a fairly small &/or a very tight house.) If rather than 3x oversized, yours is a perfectly right-sized 85% boiler you'd be looking at a -10F heat load of 29,500BTU/hr- call it 30K.

    At -10F the Mitsubishi Hyper Heating (aka "Mr. Slim") units put out about 73% of their fully rated heating load, with a COP of ~1.5, so to do the whole thing with a mini-split would take a 3+ ton unit, but a 2-ton would handle your average load just fine. (Other vendors have somewhat different very-low temp performance, but both Daikin & Fujitsu make units that work fine at -10F as well.) The mean January temp in Millinocket is ~15F, a temp at which most mini-splits are running COPs of ~2.5, and electricity costs in most of Maine is about half of what it is on Long Island, so the dollar savings for YOU may be quite significant compared to those of a L.I. resident. During warmer months the average COP will rise, making it an even better deal, with an even larger share of the total load handled by the mini-split, but your seasonal average will still likely be about 2.5-ish since most of the heating energy will be used when it's under 20F, at COPs under 3.

    Assuming you're paying 10cents/kwh and averaging a COP of 2.5, you're getting 8530BTU of space heating for every kwh, so using the 75% oil-boiler example that's a gallons-to-kwy equivalance to 103,500/8530= 12kwh, which costs you a $1.20, which is a third the price of your last 100 gallons, half your 2009 average. Have you seen $1.20 oil anytime in the past 20 years?
    My zipcode is 04276. With delivery(CMP, Central Maine Power, is not allowed to generate and directly deliver, so there is one company to generate and one to deliver) I figure we pay $0.18/kwH. I did pay about 99 cents/gal for my deliveries between 1997-1999. Nothing less than $2.30 since 2004 I don't think.


    Having established a cost savings, how much might an install of a minisplit be? I'm still waiting on the oil companies quote on an indirect. I'm guessing the indirect is going to cost wayy too much to make it worth it.

  12. #27
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    Just eyeballing it (http://weatherspark.com/#!dashboard;a=USA/ME/Rumford ) mean January temp in Rumford is also ~15F, so using the numbers for Millinocket aren't very far off. The statewide average residential retail electricity price (delivered) is still under 16 cents/kwh, but it varies widely. (seeL: http://www.eia.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_b.html ) According to 2009-2010 data the standard residential rate through CMP was 14.4 cents: http://www.maine.gov/meopa/electric/current_rates.html, but you might be one of the "lucky" ones to have it 18cents recently.

    A 2-ton mini-split (single head) is usually somewhere around $4500. (you can basically double the online "street price" as an estimate of the installed price much of the time, eg: http://www.e-comfortusa.com/products...-22500btu/4377 ). With multi-splits the compressor alone costs about as much as a single-head mini-split, then you add ~$1200-1500 (installed)/per for additional heads:

    http://www.e-comfortusa.com/products...24000-btu/6519

    and

    http://www.e-comfortusa.com/products...21000-btu/6530

    or:

    http://www.e-comfortusa.com/products/mitsubishi-mxz3b24na-mr-slim-dualtri-zone-outdoor-condenser--24000-btu/5595


    and

    http://www.e-comfortusa.com/products...21000-btu/5657

    The specs count- you want something with a heating season performance factor (HSPF) of 8.5 minimum, 10 or better is preferred. The real efficiency/performance isn't always reflected in the HSPF test number, but it's better than nothing at all to go by. Finding a model eligible for a federal tax credit or other subsidy can also take the sting out of it.

    The manufacturer is less important than the local distribution & support (if the nearest distributor for brand X is in New Jersey you probably don't want it no matter HOW great the specs look.) Finding a factory certified installer is also important. As idiot-proof as they've made the installation of some of these, there's always a cleverer idiot to be found, and you don't want somebody who can't adequately test or debug the thing on-site as part of the intial commissioning of the system. Many come with the refrigerant pre-charged at the factory, but factories aren't perfect, and leaks can happen during shipment/storage/installation, and getting the charge right for the as-installed system is critical to getting the performance out of it.

    The indirect will cut your water heating costs by at least 30%, maybe even 50% in water-heating-only mode, but there are additional savings to be had by not needing to keep the boiler so hot even during the heating season. With an embedded coil the hot water craps out pretty fast if you idle the boiler at 130-140F between calls for heat, and keeping it at 150-160F increases the standby losses by quite a bit. With an indirect and an Intellicon HW+ control you'll almost certainly see 10-15% annual fuel savings (sometimes more) due to the lowered standby loss. At $3+/gallon saving 65-100 gallons/year adds up (especially since it's after-tax savings.) If you plan to live there more than three years there's usually some payback to be had.

  13. #28
    DIY Junior Member chapchap70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Gregory- somehow I'd gotten you confused with the original poster from Long Island (as sometimes happens when you take over a thread. ;-) )
    If you were referring to me, this is not my thread; though I happened to be the initial poster of Page 2. It is actually GregoryR's thread.

  14. #29
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    I'm easily confused, eh? (Why anybody would take MY advice is beyond me! ;-) )

  15. #30
    DIY Junior Member GregoryR's Avatar
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    The quote for the Indirect came in - 41 gallon Pure Pro installed for $3,380! Eek!

    I guess that isn't going to happen. I really need to find somebody to quote me on something electric. Looking at the data pdf somebody had posted, my tankless coil is about 24.5% efficient in the summer season.

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