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Thread: Grounding Bus Questions

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member eric3872's Avatar
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    Default Grounding Bus Questions

    You have all been really helpful with your advice and suggestions. I'm wiring a new clothes dryer and am at the final step. I've run into a snag. I ran 10/3 from a new 30amp outlet. I have a 2pole 30 amp breaker ready to add to my panel (I'll be freeing up a slot by adding a 20amp tandem to one of the slots and removing another breaker that serves a dedicated outlet than is not in use). The snag I've ran into is:

    The 10/3 wire has a dedicated bare copper ground. The way my panel was wired, it appears that there are either two neutral bus bars, or the grounding bus bar has neutral wires attached to it. Is it possible that both bus bars are for the neutrals and there is no grounding bar? The whole house is wired with BX, so there are no ground wires in the panel connecting to anything as far as I can tell. My question is, can I attach the copper ground to one of the bus bars that has neutrals on it, or do I have a more complicated problem on my hands? See photos of panel below. Also, there is what appears to be a grounding clip in the panel, but nothing is attached to it. Any help would be appreciated.

    [IMG]C:/photo 2.jpg[/IMG]

    [IMG]C:\Photo 3.jpg[/IMG]

  2. #2
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    you can't post a link to YOUR COMPUTER and expect the world to see it! You REALLY don't want the world to see your computer at will!

    Upload those pics to a free account at photobucket.com


    Without seeing your details, in a main panel the neutral bus and the ground bus are tied together. Speedey will tell us if it is ok to mix and match whites and bares on either of those busses.

  3. #3
    DIY Junior Member eric3872's Avatar
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    Here are the photos. Didn't realize I couldn't upload from my pc.

    http://s1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc453/eric3872/

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    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Not everyone can see your pictures.

    If you have a older box then you may not have a separate ground bus.

    What ever bus that your box Ground rod is connected to is where the bare ground wire should be connected.


    DonL
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

    Cyber Security Protection for Windows C:\ > WWW.WinForce.Net

  5. #5
    Test, Don't Guess! cacher_chick's Avatar
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    The neutral and ground are connected together in the panel, so if your panel does not have a separate ground bar, it is acceptable to connect the ground wire to one of the neutral bars.

  6. #6
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eric3872 View Post
    Here are the photos. Didn't realize I couldn't upload from my pc.

    http://s1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc453/eric3872/
    CLOSE! Select one of your photos. Underneath it are some options. One is direct link. Copy that line and post it. if you keep the size small enought the photo will appear using the [img] format. If it is too big...no worries. Readers just click the link to see it.



    Well, the text didn't copy, but you will see it on your photobucket. I left the photo below because it is cool! Yup, that't me. This is the new navy...battle stations torpedo, aloha shirtz!
    28%
    Last edited by jimbo; 07-09-2011 at 12:18 PM. Reason: add

  7. #7
    DIY Junior Member eric3872's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    CLOSE! Select one of your photos. Underneath it are some options. One is direct link. Copy that line and post it. if you keep the size small enought the photo will appear using the [img] format. If it is too big...no worries. Readers just click the link to see it.



    Well, the text didn't copy, but you will see it on your photobucket. I left the photo below because it is cool! Yup, that't me. This is the new navy...battle stations torpedo, aloha shirtz!
    28%
    I see. Here they are:

    http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/...872/photo3.jpg

    http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/...872/photo2.jpg

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    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    If I am interpretting your photos correctly, it appears you have a pair of #10, or so, wires feeding the panel, and if so, that panel is much too "busy" for that feed. It appears that it would be stretching it even if they are #8s, and I really doubt that they are #6s.

  9. #9
    Consultant cwhyu2's Avatar
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    Is that a sub panel,it does not look like a main panel.Is it a100amp panel,it looks like the feed is # 8
    You might want to check the AMP load on the line side of that panel to see how many AMPs it is drawing.
    Last edited by cwhyu2; 07-09-2011 at 03:14 PM.

  10. #10
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    It appears that the panel originally had 16 single devices, but over the years 6 of them have been converted to "twin" breakers so now it has 22 circuits in it, and he is adding #23 a two pole 30 amp one. I cannot imagine how that panel is NOT overloaded, even given that not ALL the circuits are drawing power at the same time.

  11. #11
    DIY Junior Member eric3872's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwhyu2 View Post
    Is that a sub panel,it does not look like a main panel.Is it a100amp panel,it looks like the feed is # 8
    You might want to check the AMP load on the line side of that panel to see how many AMPs it is drawing.
    This is a sub panel I believe. It's a multi-family house There are three electric meters with main panels in the basement for each apartment. This one is located in the apartment. Believe it or not, this is a new panel with new service throughout within the past couple years. The contractor that renovated the house before I bought it was an idiot. The electrical system is just one part of a ridiculous renovation that I fixing in bits and pieces as I go. How do I check the AMP load?

  12. #12
    DIY Junior Member eric3872's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hj View Post
    It appears that the panel originally had 16 single devices, but over the years 6 of them have been converted to "twin" breakers so now it has 22 circuits in it, and he is adding #23 a two pole 30 amp one. I cannot imagine how that panel is NOT overloaded, even given that not ALL the circuits are drawing power at the same time.
    I am removing two of the tandem circuits to make room for the 30 amp breaker. So there will not be any additional load added to the panel.

  13. #13
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    CLOSE! Select one of your photos. Underneath it are some options. One is direct link. Copy that line and post it. if you keep the size small enought the photo will appear using the [img] format. If it is too big...no worries. Readers just click the link to see it.



    Well, the text didn't copy, but you will see it on your photobucket. I left the photo below because it is cool! Yup, that't me. This is the new navy...battle stations torpedo, aloha shirtz!
    28%
    That is a nice picture.

    How were you able to get the camera off the Sub? I know don't ask because you can not tell...
    Looks like you are on the surface.

    I worked on the Sonar Systems, but can't tell... Only the Fish know...

    Very nice. Very cool...


    Have a great weekend.


    DonL
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

    Cyber Security Protection for Windows C:\ > WWW.WinForce.Net

  14. #14
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    If this is true "This is a sub panel I believe. It's a multi-family house There are three electric meters with main panels in the basement for each apartment. "

    I would make sure that you do not overload something. Could be easily done...

    Be careful playing with electricity.


    DonL
    Last edited by DonL; 07-10-2011 at 06:21 AM.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

    Cyber Security Protection for Windows C:\ > WWW.WinForce.Net

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    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    Well, the secret is that the pic is taken on the USS DOLPHIN ( AGSS-555) which is now a museum sub. at the San Diego Maritime Museum! It was a deep diving ( 5000') researh sub, and all the sneaky-peaky equip. is removed, but it is otherwise a nice exhibit of a fully operational submarine....well, they cut a hole in the side for visitor access, so it won't dive again soon!

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