Ace in Hole works, but wont discharge any water when connected as backup

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Kezug

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I have an Ace in the hole that works (as tested outside using a bucket of water and it discharged up a 5 foot 2.5" pvc). However, when it is connected in my sump, when I test it, it wont work. I am confused.

When in my sump, it does have to fight a lot of back flow as there is water in the pipe that falls back after the main pump shuts off. Is there simply too much water and lift for the Ace?

I have a Simer - Ace in the Hole. model A5000-03

Any ideas?

Here is a pic of my setup.
The left arrow is a check valve.
The right arrow is where the Ace in the Hole is (it has its own check valve)
To the left, the pvc then goes up a wall about 4-5 ft, then 90 elbow out of the house for a straight declining run
SumpPumps2.jpg
 
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Cacher_Chick

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Is that a fernco or another check valve on the top line?

In any case, I believe that the check valve you have on the main pump is for use in a vertical position only. It may not seal positioned as you have it.

Finally, does the backup pump have an air vent or are you supposed to drill one in the pipe? The pump may not prime unless there is a vent hole in one or the other.
 

Kezug

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Is that a fernco or another check valve on the top line?

On the horizontal line, that is just a coupler.

In any case, I believe that the check valve you have on the main pump is for use in a vertical position only. It may not seal positioned as you have it.

If that check valve is for vertical only, and it is not sealing, what would happen? Would it affect the backup pump or is it just not working properly for the main.

Finally, does the backup pump have an air vent or are you supposed to drill one in the pipe? The pump may not prime unless there is a vent hole in one or the other.

I read through the manual, and I just dont see anywhere where I should be putting a vent hole BUT I also dont see where it points one out!

When I test the backup pump, I let the water rise to about 1/2 the height of the backup pump, then lift the float valve and it kicks on...its working, but not lifting that water up.
 

Kezug

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Hmmmm, My manual just says this: If sharing a common discharge pipe, install a check valve between the primary pump and the back-up pump connection to prevent reverse flow from the backup pump into the primary pump

Then I found this image (which is not in my manual) Notice where the Check Valve is...AFTER the (T).

SO, DO I NEED TO MOVE THE CHECK VALVE THAT I HAVE ON THE ANGLE...AFTER THE (Y) Connector? Is that why its not working?

62054828.jpg
 
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Cacher_Chick

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If your diagonal check valve is not closing, the water from the backup pump will push back through the main pump.

Are you sure you have the check valve on the backup pump installed for the proper direction of flow? If it's backwards, no water will come out.

This is all assuming you have the pump wired with the correct polarity so the motor is turning in the correct direction.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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ace in the whole is junk

I have torn out dozens of those...

they do not have the head torque to push up very far under any kind of pressure..... also, if the motor is submerged under water, over time they will lock up and gum up due to sediment.... THEY ARE WIMPY

if you were wise you would run a separate pipe out the side of your home connected only to the ace in the hole unit... just push the water out on the ground 5 feet away from the home...

that is the only way I would trust one of those units..
the dual check valves will eventually fail and then its going to be trouble
if you can run a 1 1/4 pvc line out of the home,,, I would rather do that than
trust the check valves that come with this unit..


check out some pics here of a few units we have taken out over the years...
http://weilhammerplumbing.com/sumppumps/
 
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Kezug

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If your diagonal check valve is not closing, the water from the backup pump will push back through the main pump.

Are you sure you have the check valve on the backup pump installed for the proper direction of flow? If it's backwards, no water will come out.

This is all assuming you have the pump wired with the correct polarity so the motor is turning in the correct direction.

I have ensured the wires are correct (black and red to the black and red battery connectors) I have also checked the pump outside the pit in a bucket of water and with a 5 ft pvc pipe...it works then.

So, it is possible the diaganol check valve is leaking, thus the water is pushing back into the pit and not forcing the water up and out. I can check into that.

Do they make check valves to work on the diaganol?
 

Cacher_Chick

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You could simply remove the check valve and cap off that line to test the idea. A check valve not mounted vertically needs to have a spring in it to push the valve closed.

Mark may be right. It is possible that the head pressure is causing that little check valve on the backup unit to stick shut or the pump might just be n/g.

You could test the pump against head pressure using your bucket test, but use a full 10' section of PVC on the vertical.

Isn't plumbing fun? :eek:)
 

Kezug

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I am stumped when I hear that the head pressure could be the reason the backup pump wont work (pushing against the check valve on the backup unit)...if I run any other line, that head pressure still will exist as any water not pushed up and out will come back against the backup unit. So I dont get what a second line just for the backup would help as once the backup runs, the same head pressure will exist, eventually.

If that is the case (head pressure preventing it from working) than the pump doesnt work plain and simple, as designed. :(

I am also stumped when I hear the diagonal check valve may be leaking...how could this be possible when there is water in the vertical pipe pressing back onto that check valve?

NOTE: just above the primary pump, there is a small hole in the pvc pipe. Not sure if that helps or is of any relevance.

I think it might be time to just hire someone. But I fear getting someone who wont take the time to do it right. Or look at replacing the Ace In the Hole with something better/stronger?
 

Bubb1957

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Get away from the Big Box brands, Simers, Flotec, Rigid, and get a high quality pump such as Zoeller, Stevens or Hydromatic to name a few. The Basement Watchdong will be fine for a back up, but I am not sure how they function as the Primary pump. I would think they would be a bit noisy as primary pump due to the fact that it continues to pump about 10 seconds after the float drops back into position. Sucking air for 10 seconds may not hurt the pump, but it sure will be noisy.
 

Cacher_Chick

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I'm still not convinced that you don't have a problem with air locking. The Zoeller basement sentry system uses a similar pump and the instructions very clearly state that the pump must be mounted at a 30 degree angle in the basin to prevent an air lock condition.

The check valve you have on the main pump appears to be a flapper style. This might work ok mounted diagonally, but this would largely depend on the angle of the flapper's pivot point in relation to the position which it is mounted on the pipe. I avoid these check valves in general, as they tend to make a loud water hammer when the flapper slams shut at the end of each pump cycle.
 

Kezug

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Well, I pretty much took the entire thing apart. Working from the backup pump towards the main line connection, I have observed the following:
- Just the backup pump. It works
- Added the check valve off the backup pump. It works.
- Added the coupler and pvc. It works
- Connected everything to the main line. It works.
- Run the backup pump a few times. It works....sometimes

I had made several connects and disconnects and sometimes it would work and other times it would not!

I also replaced that diagonal check valve! Could it just be a faulty backup pump?

In have very little knowledge of siphoning and pumps and air pressure locks...I am stumped.

This is what I think is happening. As the pipe exits my house...it runs at a downward angle for about 100 ft to a ditch (its all downward sloped). As that water travels I can hear siphoning affect. IS THAT CAUSING AIR PROBLEMS in my backup???? Should I drill some air holes outside (under my deck) on the top of the PVC to help with that siphoning?

This is killing me...any and all help is appreciated.
 
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Cacher_Chick

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I doubt if that is causing the problem. To prevent that, use an air gap in the line where it turns down on the outside of the house.

Here, I use a 90 turned downward where the pipe comes through the wall on the outside of the house, this then the dumps into a 4" riser which turns underground and goes out to the ditch.

NOT using a coupling between the 1-1/2" pipe and the 4" pipe allows for an air gap which prevents any siphoning.
 

Kezug

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^^^^ Thanks...let me see if I understand...really the run out of the house is short...with a 90 elbow just off the house turned down. If no other pipe existed after that, I would just run the water right into the ground (not that I would want that..just trying to ensure I understand you). Except we wont do that...here is where you have a 4" riser that essentially catches the water (not coupled..just catching the water) and then run that pipe out to the ditch.

Correct?

Do you run a 4" all the way to the ditch? My pipe to my ditch (1.5") is buried...could I eventually couple later on that 4" riser to my 1.5" that is going to my ditch?
 
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Cacher_Chick

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Correct.

The problem with the 1-1/2" line in the ground is that it is more likely to plug up or freeze, and it is hard to clean out, but it will work as long as those things don't happen.

When you do an air gap/riser you will want to use a piece of screen or something to prevent leaves from finding their way into the pipe.
 

Kezug

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Ok, so I did some further test.

When I got home tonight, I shut off the main, let the pit fill and tested the backup pump. It runs, but nothing moves up and out. I disconnected the piping on the backup and all the water ran back to the sump.
At this point, the backup pump would not run! I had to jiggle it some...tapped onto the side and even loosened the screw in check valve...then if finally would turn on.

I connected all the pipes...and let the pit fill and tested the backup pump...it works.

I plugged in the main, let it run....then unplugged to test the backup pump....Nothing...no longer pumping out the water.

So, I plug in the main, let it take a little water...(not letting the water fall below the backup pump)...turn off the main...then test the backup...It Works.

So, after many cycles, I can now recreate the situation.

Firstly, know that the water always goes about 1" above the base of the backup before the pump turns on. When the main runs, and discharches, then turns off, I hear a gurgle. Could this gurgle be putting an airlock on the backup pump???

If so, how do i avoid this? Is it because I am letting the water raise above the base of the backup?

Also, when I had the pipe off of the backup pump and tested, it worked...but I noticed that after I shut off the backup pump...that water lowered itself in the piping where the check valve is...could it be that I need to replace the check valve in the backup pump?
 

Cacher_Chick

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I don't thing your pump is priming because you have an airlock. Basically there is a air bubble at the bottom of the impeller, which is preventing the pump from priming. I think it would be prevented if you could tilt the backup pump at a slight angle so the water was getting to the impeller.

Again, I'm not there and cannot see or hear what is happening, so this is speculation based on what I know. At this point, I don't really have anything more to offer.

You have another problem if there is 12 volts at the motor and the motor does not run. If that's the case, the pump is junk.
 
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