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Thread: Question on adding branch to a panel - how do you guys access the knockouts?

  1. #16
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlarrivee View Post
    So you're a politician/inspector then?
    No I am a safety minded person with your wellbeing at the foremost of my mind.

    I am a person who has experienced flash overs and electrical explosions as well as one who has investigated such incidents. Yes I have been involved in electrical incidents caused by my own careless unsafe maneuvers.

    I am the person who knows that anyone who thinks there is no danger in doing electrical installations have taken the first step toward being permanently maimed or even killed.

    I am a person who has seen firsthand and experienced the loss to families who suffered from someone doing something in an unsafe manner.

    I am a person that was directly involved with a family where the husband lost his right arm at the shoulder and lost not only his home but his family simply because he wanted to change the circuit to his heat pump himself and shoved the cable into the main breaker of his service panel causing a flashover in which he received second and third degree burns to his arm, face and chest. He didnít even turn the main breaker off. To visit with him today, if you can catch him sober and he will tell you that he had done this type of installation hundreds of times without any problems. It only took once to stop him from doing anymore electrical installations of any kind.

    I am a person who thinks about your family and the pain and suffering that would be imposed on them should you do something that could cause you to be injured for life or even killed.

    I am a person who everyone wants to belittle because of my preaching safety and the old adage that one ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure.

    I am not against someone doing their own electrical work as long as that work is being done in a safe and compliant manner. Just because someone is a homeowner wanting to do something their self in no way relieves the dangers that arise from electrical hazards. Safety first, safety last, safety always.

    click here
    Last edited by jwelectric; 04-25-2011 at 09:10 AM.

  2. #17
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Hello JW and the Group.

    Thank You for the reply JW.

    I realize that people asking questions here are do-it-yourselfers.
    If they were experienced licensed electricians, They would not need help.

    And I do not want anyone to get hurt, Physically, Mentally or Verbally.

    But I think that smart people come here to get help, Not a Lecture on why
    they are wasting there time and why they should not do something, Your way.

    There are other knowledgeable people on this forum that have offered help and
    have been there and done that, with ease, and it works. Just not Your way.


    I looked at Your link (http://esfi.org/index.cfm/cdid/11015/pid/10262) and it said;

    * Make an effort to learn about your home electrical system so that you are able to safely navigate and maintain it.
    * Never attempt a project that is beyond your skill level. Knowing when to call a professional may help prevent electrical fires,
    injuries, and Fatalities.
    * Always turn off the power to the circuit that you plan to work on by switching off the circuit breaker in the main service panel.
    * Test the wires with a voltage meter before you touch them to make sure that the power has been turned off.
    * Be sure to unplug any lamp or appliance before working on it.
    * Use a GFCI with every power tool to protect against electrical shock hazards.
    * Never stand in a puddle or on a damp floor when working directly on or near electricity.
    * Always have your work inspected upon completion to ensure that it has been done correctly.

    This is all good information, But I see nowhere there that says to pull the meter.
    Pulling the meter is considered tampering, because You only own the equipment after the meter.
    But the meter can be pulled in an emergency as the Fire Department will normally do.


    You say;
    "I am a person who everyone wants to belittle because of my preaching safety"

    I think that if others belittle you it is that maybe sometimes you deserve it.
    Preaching is something better left to preachers in a church, for people who want to go
    and hear it, Not on the Forums, Unless someone asks You.


    This Post was originally a simple question;
    "Question on adding branch to a panel - how do you guys access the knockouts?"

    I never seen you give an answer to the question, If You did then I missed it, Maybe
    You gave it in some electrical code.


    You also said;
    "I would never install any circuit into any live panel."

    With all of Your experience, Why not ?. It is done safely every day.


    I do believe that a person should have a working voltmeter and check to make sure
    that the circuit is dead before working on it. That is a given. Respect Electricity.


    You have a way of preaching and lecturing, and running good people off.
    They want a straight answer, not a section in a code book, that they may not understand,
    or even need to understand. In our real world thay dont need all that for what they are working on.


    You should leave some of your lectures in your class room, And leave the preaching
    up to the preachers in church. Or become a preacher yourself, in your church.


    You are not Offensive to me in any way, You just rub people the wrong way.


    I hope You understand. Sorry if my english doen not suit You. You should understand.

    I know that You are a good person, and have a good heart.


    That is just my thought, But I know a lot about nothing...


    Have a Great Day.


    DonL

  3. #18
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    The very last line in that link, Always have your work inspected upon completion to ensure that it has been done correctly, will give whoever that bought the permit the right to pull the meter anywhere on this planet. That is the purpose of permits in the first place.

    The third line in that link, Always turn off the power to the circuit that you plan to work on by switching off the circuit breaker in the main service panel, means that if it is the main panel that is to receive the work then it is to be turned off and this is done by pulling the meter.

    Doing these two items will insure that the second line is adhered to; never attempt a project that is beyond your skill level. Knowing when to call a professional may help prevent electrical fires,
    injuries, and Fatalities.
    There is no such thing as a simple answer or simple job when dealing with electrical energy.

    It takes one calorie of energy to raise the temperature of one gram of water one degree Celsius. How many calories are there in 120 volts at 15 amps?

  4. #19
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Good Morning JW and the group,

    JW, You left out variables needed for an accurate answer to your question.

    Depends on the duration, of the 120 volts at 15 amps.

    Assuming you are talking about the power of 1800 watts then;

    1800 watts = approximately 430 calories / second at 1 atmosphere.

    Have a Great day.

    DonL

  5. #20
    Test, Don't Guess! cacher_chick's Avatar
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    I'm glad JW is not involved with the NTSB.
    People driving cars would be completely out of the question.

    You don't have to reply JW, I'm just pokin' fun at ya......

  6. #21
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    That is funny cacher_chick.

    That may not be a bad idea tho.

    Some people don't deserve to drive, especially when they have a phone stuck in their ear.

  7. #22
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    To pull a meter here is a big project with the utillity and co-ordination.

    Of the 5 Electricians I know here, shutting off the main is their method, and often not even that. They only pull meters to change the entire service.

    I shut off the main and add a non conductive shield over the area of the main and the incoming wires.

    Once I went to work on a service entrance that had the meter pulled 32 years earlier. [by the utility] It had been open and hot all those years in the weather on a non occupied rural property. Amazing no one died.

    A vineyard I worked on had a similar removed meter that the utility never looked at. They used a junk meter to run the irrigation pump and then set it aside.

  8. #23
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Good Point ballvalve.

    Sometimes a open meter service connection can be far more dangerous that just turning off the main breaker and leaving the meter alone.

    A non conductive shield over the area of the main and the incoming wires, is a great safety measure.

    I Respect Electricity, and I work on Hot stuff all the time. Sometimes You just have to. Not a problem.

    I have been hit by RF and other High Voltages, up to 30,000 Volts but that is why I don't use both hands while taking High Voltage measurements. Some of that stuff will reach out and grab you, No mater how much protective gear that you have.

    The Meter Does not need to be Pulled to work safely. Good Electricians will rarely pull them, unless they are changing them.

    Have a Great Day.

    DonL

  9. #24
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Hello Group.

    Sorry Probedude if your thread got blown out.

    If that is a 100 amp service and has 2 extra circuits already, then you might want to install a new Main Breaker Box.

    I have found that buying some of the old main breakers, Cost more than a new panel.

    Most of us use far more electric than the older houses did. We waste to much, I think.

    Around here if you do not have a 200 amp service, then it is old.

    Sorry that your thread got lost in the BS.

    Please come back and tell us your solution.

    Good luck on your project.

    Have a Great Day.

    DonL
    Last edited by DonL; 04-27-2011 at 12:20 PM. Reason: OP Error

  10. #25
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Hello All,

    JW, You never did say if I passed Your test.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    It takes one calorie of energy to raise the temperature of one gram of water one degree Celsius. How many calories are there in 120 volts at 15 amps?
    What was the point in asking it ? If I did not get my grade ? It is about time to graduate. Just in case I have makeup work.

    My answer was;

    Depends on the duration, of the 120 volts at 15 amps.

    Assuming you are talking about the power of 1800 watts then;

    1800 watts = approximately 430 calories / second at 1 atmosphere.

    Please Correct me if I am wrong.


    DonL
    Last edited by DonL; 04-27-2011 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Short between Headsets

  11. #26
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    So far so good.

    My point was how much heat energy in a 15 amp circuit. Now take a normal breaker with an AIC of 10,000 amps and figure out what could happen to a human body in the event of an arc flash and see if it is a good idea for an untrained person to be working on a live circuit, even taking a voltage reading with an uncategorized meter.

    Remember that although people deal with this type work daily there were over 400 deaths last year (2009) of those trained to do electrical work.
    God knows how many homeowners that were hurt as there are no records keep of this type of accident.

    The temperature on a 240 volt single phase panel can be over 300 degrees 36 inches out from the blast.

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