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Thread: On a mission to find a salt free solution

  1. #16
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Very cool website Tom, Thanks for sharing.


    Have a Great Day.


    DonL
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  2. #17
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    Well seeing as the Calvary hasn't showed up and no links are going up too the product I'll take you statements at face value ifican...

    We have become a hardened bunch over the years against the people promoting these products and it is very easy to assume when a new poster shows up discussing them that it is indeed one of the products promoters. It's just the way they do business! They do it on every forum on the web and they keep doing it!

    The threads are numerous and you can count the ones on one hand that are a legitimate single poster asking questions about a useless product scam...

    The thread at this link is a fine example...
    One of the many....

    Notice all the one and 2 hit wonder posters that showed up....
    They seemed to have an amazing familiarity with the subject and with each other...
    Notice how the postings are very similar in that thread and the others on the web in the Google search below...
    Amazing coincidence.... LOL

    There are many on the web...
    Just google salt free water conditioner scam....

    Notice how the promoters in forums promote it as a water conditioner yet the website selling them claims they are an anti-scale device...

    Anti-scale is the only place where these devices have shown even a hint of working but that only happens with limited effect in a closed loop multi-pass system which your home's potable water system is not.

  3. #18
    DIY Junior Member ifican's Avatar
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    I have read alot of that link and have to admit i agree with most of it. Let me try to sum this up as best I can on why. Besides the quirkyness as explained earlier. History is filled with "why fix it if it isnt broken". If we continued to think that way forever we would never make anything better because we have things that work just fine now. Yet as a people we continue to evolve, continue to make better, faster, smaller and easier. I may not have a scientific background but i read alot. I am open to change and approach things from an logical yet analytical point of view. I am going to get off topic for just a moment but follow me here. At its very root our computers, the ones we have in out cars, the ones we use to respond to posts on this forum, the ones the forum runs on and even the phones we use to view all of this on the go. What do they all have in common, they work on very fast changes in voltage that are interpreted into 1's and 0's which are then interpreted into what you see and hear. For the longest time lots of things that we now take for granted were deemed impossible. What am i getting at? In a different but significant nutshell molecules are all electrically charged. Even if they are electrically neutral they have significance to other charged particles. It is how traditional softners work. I simply believe that it is possible to affect this water in ways that will help me with my hardness. How? I cant rightfully say at this point and i have given it alot and will continue to give it alot of thought. All i know for sure is this, magnets can be used to generate fields that affect molecules in ways we previously never thought possible. Its how MRI's works, just recently it was discovered magnetic pulses can be used to manipulate our brainwaves from outside of the body. I could go on an on here but wont, simply if this is possible why cant magnets or electrical impulses that essentially create fields affect water to generate an outcome that i am happy with. I believe we are onto something and i believe i will find a device that will. However that is yet to be determined. In lieu of actually getting some work done i am going to stop for now.

  4. #19
    DIY Junior Member ifican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
    Anti-scale is the only place where these devices have shown even a hint of working but that only happens with limited effect in a closed loop multi-pass system which your home's potable water system is not.
    If i was not completely clear this is all i am really after. I understand completely, i have read those scam posts and dont doubt any long term members intent. I will also agree that at this point in evolution outside of ion exchange their is no way to create soft water. That is not my intent or even my desire. I would simply like to find a way to deal with hard water problems without the use of ion exchange. I am also kicking around the idea of installing a hybrid closed loop system on the tankless. My average wait time for all but 1 faucet is less than one minute, however i have also been considering this route as a possible solution to create a multi-pass environment on the hot water line. I know its only the hot but that is the one place i am more concerned with because super heating water quickly can also affect how water acts.
    Last edited by ifican; 05-11-2011 at 08:12 AM.

  5. #20
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    Very few, if any, solutions will UNDO any current problems. And additional blockage could be what would normally occur given the original water quality. Why do you think companies which make those devices rely on "testimonials" instead of objective tests? It is because the users WANT the devices to work so they convince themselves that they are, among other things by convincing themselves that the "water tastes better". I once asked the representative for one of those "alternate softening methods" how we could tell it was working. He said you couldn't unless they brought a semi truck with $20,000.00 worth of test equipment. WHich to me means any change is so small that it could be something which happens naturally or might be where, and when, the water samples were obtained.

  6. #21
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    I agree hj,

    I still think his wife will clean that shower head, Just so he will quit experimenting.

    Then he will be one of the "testimonials" that we read about. IT WORKED !! ("No She Did...lol)

    But it is fun to play. To each his own...

    DonL
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  7. #22
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifican View Post
    In a different but significant nutshell molecules are all electrically charged. Even if they are electrically neutral they have significance to other charged particles. It is how traditional softners work. I simply believe that it is possible to affect this water in ways that will help me with my hardness. How? I cant rightfully say at this point and i have given it alot and will continue to give it alot of thought.
    No Traditional Softeners work by removing the Lime and Calcium from the water then replacing it maintaining the neutrality. These devices cannot do that!

    Quote Originally Posted by ifican View Post
    All i know for sure is this, magnets can be used to generate fields that affect molecules in ways we previously never thought possible. Its how MRI's works, just recently it was discovered magnetic pulses can be used to manipulate our brainwaves from outside of the body. I could go on an on here but wont, simply if this is possible why cant magnets or electrical impulses that essentially create fields affect water to generate an outcome that i am happy with. I believe we are onto something and i believe i will find a device that will. However that is yet to be determined. In lieu of actually getting some work done i am going to stop for now.
    Still the resolution of the MRI is in a large part possible due to magnetic properties within the cells such as Iron in your blood....

    Tumors for instance are easily visible because of the increased blood flow to them. Brain imaging is largely done by blood flow mapping....

  8. #23
    DIY Junior Member ifican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hj View Post
    Very few, if any, solutions will UNDO any current problems. And additional blockage could be what would normally occur given the original water quality. Why do you think companies which make those devices rely on "testimonials" instead of objective tests? It is because the users WANT the devices to work so they convince themselves that they are, among other things by convincing themselves that the "water tastes better".

    I agree completely with the testimonials though i would stipulate that not all testimonials are placebo effect. So would a water softner not slowly clear partially plugged holes?

  9. #24
    DIY Junior Member ifican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
    No Traditional Softeners work by removing the Lime and Calcium from the water then replacing it maintaining the neutrality. These devices cannot do that!
    How does that ion exchange take place? And i agree complete that none of these devices will do that. Not even wanting that to happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
    Still the resolution of the MRI is in a large part possible due to magnetic properties within the cells such as Iron in your blood....

    Tumors for instance are easily visible because of the increased blood flow to them. Brain imaging is largely done by blood flow mapping....
    Agreed with both statements, we can get into the inner working on magnetic resonance on a different thread, i was simply making a point that celluar structure has the ability to be affected but passing through or sitting within a magnetic or pulsed field. I will even go on to say that the force of the field an mri machine imparts on the body is impossibly strong compared to something over the counter you buy. Again just saying i am open to figuring out if exponentially weaker fields can help me in search of my hard water concerns.

  10. #25
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    (Quote); History is filled with "why fix it if it isnt broken". If we continued to think that way forever we would never make anything better because we have things that work just fine now. Yet as a people we continue to evolve, continue to make better, faster, smaller and easier. I may not have a scientific background but i read alot. I am open to change and approach things from an logical yet analytical point of view.

    And yet we did figure out that lead cannot be turned into gold. Changing the chemical properties of minerals and water has been researched for decades now. When chemists tell you that the laws of physics and chemistry would have to be altered for these devices to work, I tend to side with them. Still, I suppose that one could strap some plywood to ones arms, flap like a bird and hope to fly and yet, history would prove otherwise.

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  12. #27
    DIY Junior Member ifican's Avatar
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    Mr. Sawyer - touche, though i will counter with this. Einstein was told for many years his theory of relativity would never work. In recent times leading physicists speculated string theory could never be proven. I have been called many different names over the years by friends and family alike, for doubting some experts when it comes to things i can readily understand. Not that i can readily prove but what makes sense to me in how things should beable to be manipulated. Though i have to say while reading a few other articles i need to ponder a few variants of my own reasoning i had not taken into account thus far.

    Redwood - my question was really a poke at your comment, which said i was wrong in my definition of how softerns work.

    I had only ever previously glanced at the definition of aragonite, good stuff on that one. The others i have read alot about previous.
    Last edited by ifican; 05-11-2011 at 04:11 PM.

  13. #28
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Well, without getting openly hostile here and resorting to defamation and such I will indeed and with total sincerity wish you the best of luck in your quest. If you will excuse me, it's time for me to fill my brine tank

  14. #29
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifican View Post
    I had only ever previously glanced at the definition of aragonite, good stuff on that one. The others i have read alot about previous.
    Yes, what they have you believe is that the frequency of their magnetic field changes the calcium to aragonite which is unstable and would rapidly change back....

    Everywhere you turn the concept is just out to lunch...

  15. #30
    DIY Junior Member ifican's Avatar
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    I agree whole heartedly that most of these companies market crap. And blatantly falsify information, i have read most of the arguments they make, in fact i believe it was a really long thread on this very forum where i first ready about aragonite. Just a few weeks ago i was communicating via chat with one particular well known company and the rep pretended to know but had no clue. Could not answer basic questions on how their product worked and only came up with canned responses. So i have read and agree that most is junk. We will see in time how it all works out. Good stuff though, and i have gotten a few more things to think about after these last few days so i thank you all for that.

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