Tom Sawyer
In the Trades
You will know when you get it out of the hole. Inspect the wires very closely from the pump to about 20 feet or so up.
Is my submersible pump nearly finished?
- Thread starter danielrhall
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+2 on the expected lifespan bs.
seen many pumps last 15-25 years with "properly sized tanks". i'd say i've changed way more quality subs that were over 10yrs old rather than under, especially when sized with a descent tank. good pumps last longer than cheap pumps, and the fewer cycles you get out of either should extend the life... this is why i think csv is definitely a good gamechanging product for many applications, but i havent seen or used them long enough to tell anyone they are doing wrong by installing a 20gpm pump with a 20-30gal drawdown tank because i've seen those systems last a long time.
btw, Goulds now uses Centripro motors (Pentek).
seen many pumps last 15-25 years with "properly sized tanks". i'd say i've changed way more quality subs that were over 10yrs old rather than under, especially when sized with a descent tank. good pumps last longer than cheap pumps, and the fewer cycles you get out of either should extend the life... this is why i think csv is definitely a good gamechanging product for many applications, but i havent seen or used them long enough to tell anyone they are doing wrong by installing a 20gpm pump with a 20-30gal drawdown tank because i've seen those systems last a long time.
btw, Goulds now uses Centripro motors (Pentek).
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LLigetfa
DIYer, not in the trades
Around here poly proliferates. We use these cable guides to keep the wire from chafing.
WellWaterProducts
In the trades
As a rule, I'm surprised when we see a failed pump under 10 years old. Electrical fluctuations have some bearing on pump motor life too.
Tom Sawyer
In the Trades
Under normal use conditions I can't see how a CSV would make any difference and not only that it may well cycle the pump more often. When someone flushes a toilet, draws a glass of water, takes a short shower etc, the pump will run with a CSV. With a large capacity storage tank the pump will not run until X number of gallons of water are drawn down. For long draws a CSV will keep the pump from cycling but...... with a tank and provided the pump is not greatly oversized, it will also run continulusly until the faucet is closed. I have not to date been able to find any definitive comparisons of residential systems and graphed run times.
Cacher_Chick
Test, Don't Guess!
I'm not sold on the CSV and small tank idea for the same reasons Tom stated. I do think a CSV added to a standard size tank is a good idea, particularly since a CSV is cheap compared to the cost of a pump.
this has always been my stance, where have you guys been?? i'm always the lone wolf in the csv/4.4 gal system *debates*. i've never been a fan of it for home use, because of the very small drawdown.
what i really like is to use a 20-26 gal tank, then a 60psi csv.. and have the switch set at 45-65 (or valve at 50psi and switch 35-55). this way you get the 5-6gals of drawdown, pump still runs continuous when water is in demand, and when water stops it doesnt take forever to reach shut off. still not sure if this is a better setup than a pump with say a 25-30 gal drawdown tank.. but its a heck of alot better than a 1gal drawdown and the big tanks are a tough sell around here.
only thing the 4.4 gal tank can do is truly give that steady "city water pressure" feeling.. other than that, i dont think its good for home use as far as cycling goes. ..irrigation is another story.
what i really like is to use a 20-26 gal tank, then a 60psi csv.. and have the switch set at 45-65 (or valve at 50psi and switch 35-55). this way you get the 5-6gals of drawdown, pump still runs continuous when water is in demand, and when water stops it doesnt take forever to reach shut off. still not sure if this is a better setup than a pump with say a 25-30 gal drawdown tank.. but its a heck of alot better than a 1gal drawdown and the big tanks are a tough sell around here.
only thing the 4.4 gal tank can do is truly give that steady "city water pressure" feeling.. other than that, i dont think its good for home use as far as cycling goes. ..irrigation is another story.
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WellWaterProducts
In the trades
The wire will seldom give you this symptom.
Ballvalve
General Engineering Contractor
Around here poly proliferates. We use these cable guides to keep the wire from chafing.
I'll second that vote. Poly is the best when done correctly.
Prior to a pull checking the amp draw on each wire would be very telling.
Should be around 6 if its 240V
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The seven year average came from Franklin back in the 80’s and early 90’s when they still offered useful information. I can also confirm the seven year average from my personal experience. In the 80’s and 90’s I sold about 2,000 pumps per year. My people installed about half of those, and the rest went to other pump installers and DIYers. Most of the pumps we installed lasted much longer than 7 years. However, there was a certain percentage who wouldn’t listen, and didn’t run enough sprinklers to keep the pump from cycling itself to death. So about 2%, or 20 pumps per year we had to warranty because they didn’t last very long. This percentage was much higher for the DIYers and less experienced installers. So for every pump that lasted 20 years, there was another that didn’t make it 6 months. For every pump that lasted ten years, there was another that only lasted 5. Every winter we would scrap out the mountain of old pumps and motors. Checking the date codes, the average life was almost exactly 7 years, you could set your watch by it.
Franklin now uses plastic end bells on the motors they sell through the big box stores, and there are dozens of new brand names on the market. This along with the fact that many people are doing it themselves these days, I would bet the average life in now more like 5 years.
Most pumps only cycle “excessively” when water is used for long periods of time, as for watering the yard or garden. For just the house, the pump is still going to cycle a few times per day for showers, toilets, etc. With a CSV, no matter the size of the tank, the pump will only cycle once per shower. With a small tank, even if the pump cycles every time you flush, which it doesn’t, how many times a day will the toilets be flushed? I would guess 10 times per day per person would be a lot. So the 20 or 30 cycles per day caused by flushing, are more than made up for by not cycling 3 or 4 times during each shower. This is not even considering the possible hundreds of cycles per day saved by the CSV when watering the yard or garden.
I have done the test to know that a pump for just a house with a CSV and a 4.4 gallon tank, will cycle almost exactly the same number of times as a system without a CSV, which has a “properly sized tank”. Of course the CSV with a little larger tank gives you the best of both worlds. It will cycle considerably less than a CSV with a small tank, or a system without a CSV and a “properly sized tank” for just house use. But for irrigation, the CSV keeps the pump running anyway, regardless of the size of tank. For house use only, the few cycles per day saved by using a little larger tank with the CSV are not worth the tradeoffs. The tradeoffs being the little larger tank cost more, takes up more room, and makes you wait longer to see the constant pressure from the CSV.
Franklin now uses plastic end bells on the motors they sell through the big box stores, and there are dozens of new brand names on the market. This along with the fact that many people are doing it themselves these days, I would bet the average life in now more like 5 years.
Most pumps only cycle “excessively” when water is used for long periods of time, as for watering the yard or garden. For just the house, the pump is still going to cycle a few times per day for showers, toilets, etc. With a CSV, no matter the size of the tank, the pump will only cycle once per shower. With a small tank, even if the pump cycles every time you flush, which it doesn’t, how many times a day will the toilets be flushed? I would guess 10 times per day per person would be a lot. So the 20 or 30 cycles per day caused by flushing, are more than made up for by not cycling 3 or 4 times during each shower. This is not even considering the possible hundreds of cycles per day saved by the CSV when watering the yard or garden.
I have done the test to know that a pump for just a house with a CSV and a 4.4 gallon tank, will cycle almost exactly the same number of times as a system without a CSV, which has a “properly sized tank”. Of course the CSV with a little larger tank gives you the best of both worlds. It will cycle considerably less than a CSV with a small tank, or a system without a CSV and a “properly sized tank” for just house use. But for irrigation, the CSV keeps the pump running anyway, regardless of the size of tank. For house use only, the few cycles per day saved by using a little larger tank with the CSV are not worth the tradeoffs. The tradeoffs being the little larger tank cost more, takes up more room, and makes you wait longer to see the constant pressure from the CSV.
Tom Sawyer
In the Trades
Carey, thank you for that post. It is probably the only honest answer that anyone anywhere has ever given about CSV's and their applications.
still a stretch to say a csv4.4 is better/equal to a sub with ~25gal drawdown tank in the home as far as cycling. seriously, how many people actually have a toilet with less than 1 gallon flush? how does 20-30 cycles from flushing outweigh 3-4 cycles per 2-3 people from showering? ..and anyone taking this kind of shower is having way too much fun in there.
with csv, i think that little initial price difference in tanks from 4.4 to 20 is a small price to not worry about your pump running with every little bit of demand.. those cycles add up.
with csv, i think that little initial price difference in tanks from 4.4 to 20 is a small price to not worry about your pump running with every little bit of demand.. those cycles add up.
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Here is a chart from Amtrols “lab study” on the subject. This was done for just a house with no irrigation or heat pump. The longest draw of water was for 7 minutes at a time. So it gives a good representation of how many times the pump will cycle for just a house. Notice that without a CSV, the pump cycled 19 times per day. And with a CSV and 20 gallon tank, the cycling was cut in half to 10 cycles per day, which is good. Using a 4.4 gallon tank with the CSV only brings the cycles per day back up to 19, which is equal to a “properly sized tank” system.
Notice the variable speed pump cycled almost three times as much. This shows that no matter the size of pressure tank used, with VFD control the pump still has to start for every water use event, which is not good.
Also notice the last line I added. This is the real test for a CSV. As with an irrigation system or a heat pump that only uses half of the total output of the pump, the CSV would keep the pump running constant and there would only be 1 cycle per year. With a “properly sized tank” system, this would cause 960 cycles per day or 350,000 per year, which is really not good. This shows the CSV really shines when using small amounts of water for long periods of time. But this chart also shows that for just house use alone, the CSV and 4.4 gallon tank won’t cycle anymore than a so called “properly sized tank” system.
Notice the variable speed pump cycled almost three times as much. This shows that no matter the size of pressure tank used, with VFD control the pump still has to start for every water use event, which is not good.
Also notice the last line I added. This is the real test for a CSV. As with an irrigation system or a heat pump that only uses half of the total output of the pump, the CSV would keep the pump running constant and there would only be 1 cycle per year. With a “properly sized tank” system, this would cause 960 cycles per day or 350,000 per year, which is really not good. This shows the CSV really shines when using small amounts of water for long periods of time. But this chart also shows that for just house use alone, the CSV and 4.4 gallon tank won’t cycle anymore than a so called “properly sized tank” system.
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danielrhall
New Member
It is 240V and 2-wire.
I have the current draw measurements. Each of the two wires measures pretty much the same. When the pump starts, AC current is just under 20A and drops to just under 16A by the time cut-off pressure is reached. Yikes!
I'm on borrowed time with that pump.
WellWaterProducts
In the trades
If you run it long enough the overload should make it drop out to zero. You don't have too many gallons left on that pump....
danielrhall
New Member
I sent much of the following directly to Cary at CSV but would value responses from others. And I apologize in advance for the length, but I want to supply all possible relevant information.
So I know I have to replace my submersible pump and would like to take the opportunity to make some upgrades and improvements in my well system. Here’s what I’ve got:
Existing pump: Goulds 5GS05422, 1/2HP 5GPM 2-wire 230V. Installed in May 2004.
Pressure tank: Well-X-Trol WX-202
Pressure switch: set to 30/50 but would like to change to 40/60.
Well: six-inch, pump at 260’, depth of well approximately 300’, static water level is 23’ below pressure tank, 1†poly pipe from pump to pressure tank is 65’ from tank to pitless adapter. Well yield is unknown but a neighbor thinks he remembers it being 7-8 GPM when it was drilled in 1977. If this helps, I have run two sprinkler head for over 12 hours constant many times in the summer without running out of water.
As has been noted earlier in this topic, the existing pump definitely needs to be replaced since, during demand for volume, such as filling the washer, the pump has started to thermally cut-out. I measured it to be drawing 19 amps when it starts, so it’s definitely almost finished. In spite of that, it will still make 60 PSI at the tank if I set it that way.
There’s something going on with the pressure tank that I don’t quite understand. Its rated drawdown at 30/50 PSI is 6.8 gallons. But when I measure the drawdown from a nearby faucet, from when the pressure gauge reads 50 PSI down to 30 PSI and the pump turns on, I’m getting about 2.8 gallons. I don’t quite understand that. I've set the tank pressure to 28 PSI when it's empty of water, it holds that pressure, and rocking the tank when empty certainly makes it seem to be empty, so the tank seems to be okay.
After drawing down the 2.8 gallons and the pump cutting in, it then takes about 28 seconds to get the system back to 50 PSI, so I’m figuring that a) the pump is making about 6 GPM, and b) the pump is not running long enough to cool itself, which is probably a good reason why it’s failing.
So I’d like to consider upgrading the pump to one that would provide me with more GPM for watering in the summer, since I do notice reduced volume when two sprinklers are running. A more constant and higher pressure would be nice too, since if I run two impact sprinklers, there’s not enough pressure or volume – not sure which – to get them to change their direction until the pump re-pressurizes the system.
So that’s where the CSV comes in. I was originally considering the CSV150 and putting it in the well casing below the pitless adapter. I think my reason for choosing that valve is because, while I’ve tried to understand friction loss and reduced pressure falloff, I’m afraid I’m still not getting it. What I have understood is that the CSV1 less “adversely†affects system pressure or flow. But I’d really like the convenience of being able to adjust the valve easily, and the durability of a brass valve, so I’d like to consider either the CSV1Z or the CSV1W mounted in the house. From what I’ve described about my system, will the CSV1Z or CSV1W work well with my system? If not, since I’m considering upgrading components (particularly the pump), what would need to change?
My understanding about the function of the CSV indicates that it will allow only 1 GPM above its pressure rating when there’s no more demand for water. Will that lengthen the refill time of my pressure tank and thus the on-time of my pump? Should I consider a larger pressure tank even with a CSV, for interior non-watering use, since I’m only getting 2.8 gallons of drawdown?
Thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer.
So I know I have to replace my submersible pump and would like to take the opportunity to make some upgrades and improvements in my well system. Here’s what I’ve got:
Existing pump: Goulds 5GS05422, 1/2HP 5GPM 2-wire 230V. Installed in May 2004.
Pressure tank: Well-X-Trol WX-202
Pressure switch: set to 30/50 but would like to change to 40/60.
Well: six-inch, pump at 260’, depth of well approximately 300’, static water level is 23’ below pressure tank, 1†poly pipe from pump to pressure tank is 65’ from tank to pitless adapter. Well yield is unknown but a neighbor thinks he remembers it being 7-8 GPM when it was drilled in 1977. If this helps, I have run two sprinkler head for over 12 hours constant many times in the summer without running out of water.
As has been noted earlier in this topic, the existing pump definitely needs to be replaced since, during demand for volume, such as filling the washer, the pump has started to thermally cut-out. I measured it to be drawing 19 amps when it starts, so it’s definitely almost finished. In spite of that, it will still make 60 PSI at the tank if I set it that way.
There’s something going on with the pressure tank that I don’t quite understand. Its rated drawdown at 30/50 PSI is 6.8 gallons. But when I measure the drawdown from a nearby faucet, from when the pressure gauge reads 50 PSI down to 30 PSI and the pump turns on, I’m getting about 2.8 gallons. I don’t quite understand that. I've set the tank pressure to 28 PSI when it's empty of water, it holds that pressure, and rocking the tank when empty certainly makes it seem to be empty, so the tank seems to be okay.
After drawing down the 2.8 gallons and the pump cutting in, it then takes about 28 seconds to get the system back to 50 PSI, so I’m figuring that a) the pump is making about 6 GPM, and b) the pump is not running long enough to cool itself, which is probably a good reason why it’s failing.
So I’d like to consider upgrading the pump to one that would provide me with more GPM for watering in the summer, since I do notice reduced volume when two sprinklers are running. A more constant and higher pressure would be nice too, since if I run two impact sprinklers, there’s not enough pressure or volume – not sure which – to get them to change their direction until the pump re-pressurizes the system.
So that’s where the CSV comes in. I was originally considering the CSV150 and putting it in the well casing below the pitless adapter. I think my reason for choosing that valve is because, while I’ve tried to understand friction loss and reduced pressure falloff, I’m afraid I’m still not getting it. What I have understood is that the CSV1 less “adversely†affects system pressure or flow. But I’d really like the convenience of being able to adjust the valve easily, and the durability of a brass valve, so I’d like to consider either the CSV1Z or the CSV1W mounted in the house. From what I’ve described about my system, will the CSV1Z or CSV1W work well with my system? If not, since I’m considering upgrading components (particularly the pump), what would need to change?
My understanding about the function of the CSV indicates that it will allow only 1 GPM above its pressure rating when there’s no more demand for water. Will that lengthen the refill time of my pressure tank and thus the on-time of my pump? Should I consider a larger pressure tank even with a CSV, for interior non-watering use, since I’m only getting 2.8 gallons of drawdown?
Thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer.
Masterpumpman
In the Trades
Valveman said it all. Pumps may last longer than 7 years but they have just so many cycles in them. In any case the pump has to come out of the well. I'd change the wire also or at least reverse the ends.
I highly recommend installing a CSV or a Pside-Kick kit. A CSV will prevent cycling and give you a constant pressure while extending the life of your whole system.
What ever you do, don't let anyone sell you a computerized CFD pump! They are expensive, troublesome and you think you have troubles now!!!
I highly recommend installing a CSV or a Pside-Kick kit. A CSV will prevent cycling and give you a constant pressure while extending the life of your whole system.
What ever you do, don't let anyone sell you a computerized CFD pump! They are expensive, troublesome and you think you have troubles now!!!
2.8 gallons of draw is more than you need with a CSV. But that tank should have 5-6 gallons of draw, so I think the tank is bad, and you won’t even have 2.8 gallons for very long. It is better to have a good 4.4 gallon tank with 1 gallon of draw, than to have that tank with a bad bladder that will waterlog completely fairly soon. If your pump still cycles on and off with the largest water zone being used, friction loss of any CSV will not be noticed.
danielrhall
New Member
Cary, thanks for the reply and the response to my email. I haven't had a chance to respond to the email yet, but I will add a little info here.
The problem wasn't with the tank but with the water pressure gauge. It was actually a brand new gauge but it was reading 10 PSI too low. That made troubleshooting tougher, that's for sure. Things just weren't making sense. So after verifying that the air pressure in the tank was correct with two separate gauges, I determined that the water pressure gauge had to be bad. I put a new new water pressure gauge on the manifold, and now at about 35-55 PSI, that tank draws 6.2 gallons as it should.
Because the bad gauge fooled me into setting the pressure switch incorrectly, the system was actually working at 48-68 PSI. The pump still cuts out thermally and needs to be replaced, but I'm impressed that the tired old girl will still make 68 PSI.
-Dan
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