Pro's and con's of 4" dia. well

..pretty much 6 in one hand, half dozen in the other.

run time is basically the same. galv. tanks just take a couple additional parts to maintain air/water level in tank, but the tanks do tend to last longer. i like bladder/diaphragm tanks personally (preferably flexcon or well-x-trol). just makes things easier if you were ever to convert to a different type system in the future such as constant pressure valves and what not.

justwater said:

i like bladder/diaphragm tanks personally (preferably flexcon or well-x-trol). just makes things easier if you were ever to convert to a different type system in the future such as constant pressure valves and what not.

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A 220 or equivalent bladder tank with a 20 to 25 GPM pump is bare minimum. Just barely gives you the minimum 1 minute of run time. Then every sprinkler zone has to match the 25 GPM pump exactly, and while running sprinklers, you don’t have any volume or pressure left for the house.

Why wait to convert in the future, the future is here. I would use a Cycle Stop Valve and a 4.4 gallon size tank as in the picture to the left. This will be much less expensive and work much better than just a big tank. With the CSV you can irrigate with as little as 1 GPM to 20 GPM without cycling the pump to death, and still have constant pressure and plenty of volume in the house. See this graphic of how it works and why big tanks are a thing of the past.
www.cyclestopvalves.com

dont tell me, tell the OP. i know how csv's work.

i was just answering his question on the differences in tanks.

btw, the sweet little 4.4gal bladder with a csv is bare minimum run time also... without any storage.

One minute of run time is only important with the old style pressure tank only systems. When the system is on for one minute, then off for one minute, on a minute, off a minute, over and over and over, it is important to have a tank large enough to give you that minute. Even then the pump will still cycle itself to death.

Cycle Stop Valves stop pumps from cycling on and off. As long as you are using at least 1 GPM, the water goes right past the tank, not in and out of the tank. So with a CSV and 4.4 gallon tank, the run time is for as long as you are using water, and not dependent on how big a tank you have. Then after you turn off all the faucets, it still takes the CSV one more minute, to put one more gallon in the tank before the pump shuts off.

When the CSV is filling the tank at 1 GPM, the amps are reduced, which de-rates the motor. A de-rated motor is running cooler than normal, and really doesn’t need one minute of run time anyway.

Pressure tanks were never meant for storage, only to reduce the number of times a pump cycles on and off. Even a 220 equivalent tank only holds about 25 gallons of usable water. That 25 gallons of storage would only be important during a power outage, and even then there is no guarantee the tank will be full when the power goes off. There is a 50/50 chance the tank will be half empty when the power goes off. But the real odds are even a big tank won’t have 2 gallons in it when you really need it.

Your real water storage is in the well where you have millions of gallons stored. If the power is off long enough to matter, you need a generator. If the power is off for a long time, a big pressure tank will be empty in a few minutes. If you spend the money on a generator instead of a big tank, you will have water for as long as you have fuel.

Those who don’t learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. No need in waiting to see the problems of a pressure tank only system before installing a CSV. Learn from everyone else’s mistakes and get it right the first time.

valveman said:

One minute of run time is only important with the old style pressure tank only systems. When the system is on for one minute, then off for one minute, on a minute, off a minute, over and over and over, it is important to have a tank large enough to give you that minute. Even then the pump will still cycle itself to death.

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for the proposed system to be off 1 minute before pump kicking back on, you would be using 25gpm. the pump would not fill this tank and be off in another minute if 25gpm were in demand. storage isnt only important for power outages.. the storage/drawdown says this system will have 24 extra gallons over 4.4gal tank for handwashing, toilet flushing, rinsing, and other household use before the pump has to run again. the csv/4.4 gal will cycle once for each of these applications. small amounts of steady longterm demand and the citylike pressure is the only place the csv/4.4 will shine for a home. as far as power draw, not running will beat reduced amperage every time.

sure you can run a generator all day and have water for as long as you have fuel with the csv/4.4gal.. or you can fire up the generator 1 minute for every 25 gallons.

you know i'm a fan of csv.. but i think your reaching to say a csv/4.4 is better suited for in-home use rather than the proposed tank as far as cycling goes. when irrigation comes into play, the tides could turn.. unless the irrigation guy knows how to properly size the system.

OK so a 12 GPM demand will cause the pump to cycle on for two minutes and be off for two minutes. Two minutes is better than one minute, but still cycling the pump to death.

25 gallons in a tank just means the pressure is decreasing from 60 to 40 for the first half of a shower, then increasing from 40 to 60 for the last half of a shower. You may not realize how aggravating that is if you have never experienced a shower at a constant 50 PSI.

Unless you wait a minute or two between water uses, the pump does not cycle for every use, even with a 4.4 gallon tank. Flush a toilet, the toilet takes a minute to refill, then the pressure tank takes another minute to fill before the pump shuts off. So if you don’t wait two minutes to wash your hands, turn on the shower, or wash a toothbrush, the pump doesn’t cycle again. If the dishwasher or washing machine is filling while other appliances are being used, the pump doesn’t cycle again. If someone is in the shower while you are washing or flushing, the pump doesn’t cycle again. With three girls in the house, the pump will most likely come on about 6:30 AM, and stay on until 7:30 AM, when everyone leaves the house. The pump will probably come on again about 6 PM and run until 8 PM, while washing machines are running and everyone is using water.

As far as power draw, running for an hour or two a day at reduced amperage might increase the electric bill $3 to $5 a month for just a house. That difference won’t pay for the extra cost of the big tank. Then if the reduced cycling triples the life of your pump, a couple of extra bucks in electricity will actually save money.

During a power outage, just run the generator for 30 minutes, and tell everyone they have 30 minutes to use all the water they want. Or fill a 25 gallon tank, shut off the generator, and tell everyone to take a sponge bath. Girls love that. Of course you could leave the generator running for 30 minutes even with a big tank. Either way the generator is running if you want to use any quantity of water to speak of.

And your right all of this changes if you have irrigation. The CSV especially shines by eliminating multiple cycles when you have long-term low uses of water. Irrigation contractors are also learning that properly sizing a system no longer means matching every zone to the pump. Properly sizing an irrigation system means getting the most use for every gallon of water. This means sizing the system for the exact needs of the yard, not the pump, which is what a CSV does best.

I still use big pressure tanks. But only on a 2,000 GPM system for and entire city like in the pic attached.

impressive setup. thats not a sta-rite signature bladder tank is it?

RO water so the tank had to be fiberglass. I don't really like those kind of tanks but, that is the one the customer wanted, so we made it work.

I assume that little pump is what I would call "Gap Action"? Nice color, is that "Goulds Blue"?

I really like that 220 gallon tank set-up. With that tank you should have plenty of draw-down, and when that hurricane comes you'll have tens of gallons of water at pressure stored in reserve. You can flush the toilet several times, wash up a little, etc and the water will run until the pressure reaches zero. So you're "total drawdown" will be much greater than what will happen when the pump is running and set at 30-50. When Ike ran through here in 2008 we lost power for three days. With gas at $3+ per gallon it was nice to have that 10-20 gallons of water extra and not have to run the generator every time a facet was opened up. Charge up the tank once or twice a day if you're conservative. Also add an extra air charge and you can really get that drawdown up. Plus the galv. tank will cut down on the H2S smell.

yeah people like the idea of the "replaceable bladder" in those starite fiberglass tanks. only tells me they dont have too much faith in their product. i've seen alot of premature failures with them over the years.

if i had to go fiberglass.. i'd probably first go with flex-lite, then wellmate, then starite signature. but customer gets what customer wants.. i know how that goes.

Texas Wellman said:

I really like that 220 gallon tank set-up. With that tank you should have plenty of draw-down, and when that hurricane comes you'll have tens of gallons of water at pressure stored in reserve. You can flush the toilet several times, wash up a little, etc and the water will run until the pressure reaches zero. So you're "total drawdown" will be much greater than what will happen when the pump is running and set at 30-50. When Ike ran through here in 2008 we lost power for three days. With gas at $3+ per gallon it was nice to have that 10-20 gallons of water extra and not have to run the generator every time a facet was opened up. Charge up the tank once or twice a day if you're conservative. Also add an extra air charge and you can really get that drawdown up. Plus the galv. tank will cut down on the H2S smell.

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What is H2S?

H2S is Hydrogen Sulfide. Some areas have H2S naturally in the water. It gives off a rotten egg smell. Mixing the water with air will get rid of most of the smell. So there are areas, apparently like in Texas Wellmans part of the country, where the old style air over water tanks are the only way to go. A bladder tank doesn’t let air mix with the water, and won’t get rid of the rotten egg smell. If I had H2S, I would also use a standard air over water tank system, and the larger the tank, the larger the air to water ratio.

However, most of the country does not have H2S. Where H2S is not present, I would only use a bladder tank. Back before bladder tanks existed, the everyday problems with standard air over water tanks were common knowledge. A bleeder orifice, check valve, Schrader valve, and air volume control are needed to maintain the air to water ration in a standard bladderless tank. These little parts are notorious for causing problems. The little hole in the bleeder will clog up. The above ground check valve wears out, which keeps the bleeder from opening up. The Schrader valve has to be in a fairly clean well house. Because the Schrader is where the air gets into the system, and I have seen them sucking in chicken feathers and such which isn’t good. The Schrader valve can plug up or start spurting water. If it spurts water, usually somebody will just screw a cap on the Schrader valve, which renders it inoperable. Then the Air Volume Control or AVC in the side of the tank, which lets out excess air, is always clogging up, spurting water, or the float in the tank just falls off. Regular maintenance is needed to maintain these parts and to make sure you have enough air in the tank.

The bladder tank was invented to eliminate these problems. The bladder separates the water from the air, so the air never needs recharging. This eliminates the four little moving parts that always caused problems with the old style tanks. The bladder tank basically requires no maintenance. And as Justin so eloquently put it a while back, people just won’t maintain a water system. They want to turn on a faucet when they want water, and turn off a faucet when they don’t, and nothing else. If you leave one thing for the homeowner to check or maintain, it won’t get done, the system will fail, and the pump man is responsible, because he didn’t install a maintenance free system. So I would never install a bladderless tank unless I had to deal with H2S or something similar.

A few “tens of gallons” stored in a tank would be nice for the first flush or two, but won’t last long when the power is off for three days. I would keep a generator handy, and run it once a day while everyone showers. Then I would fill some jugs for drinking water and fill a bathtub before shutting off the generator. A bathtub will hold more usable water than the largest pressure tank available. You can dip flushing and washing water from the tub for a long time.

The little pump on that station is called a “pressure maintenance” or “jockey pump”. We don’t like the word “jockey pump” as that implies the pump will jockey on and off. Which is what happens with other brands of pump stations. With a CSV, that PM pump will run steady as long as more than 2 GPM is being used, so we prefer the name “pressure maintenance” or “PM pump”. On a big system the PM pump runs 24/7. This delivers small flow rates efficiently, and takes lots of wear and tear off the larger pump(s). The PM pump handles everything from 0 flow to about 50 GPM. When more than 50 GPM is being used, the pressure drops and a larger pump comes on to supply more water. Then if even more water is needed, even more pumps come on line.

When the flow decreases and less than 50 GPM is being used, the CSV on the PM pump builds enough pressure to shut off the larger pump(s). We prefer to turn on more and larger pumps when needed, than to let a large pump cycle itself to death into a big pressure tank. For instance, you could use a 100 HP pump cycling on and off into a 15,000 gallon pressure tank. We prefer a 10 HP, 30 HP and a 60 HP pump using CSV’s and a little 80 gallon tank. Running all three pumps at the same time will give you the 100 HP volume when it is needed. But one pump by itself, or any combination of these pumps running together can efficiently supply any amount of water between zero flow and the maximum flow. And the whole thing runs on a single 80 gallon pressure tank.

The following picture will give you a better indication of just how small a pressure tank can be, when the pumps flow is controlled by a CSV. This is a 15,000 gallon pressure tank that has been replaced by a CSV and an 80 gallon bladder tank. I thought Justin would like this one, because it is in Florida. We have a lot of others working this way in different parts of the US as well as other countries.

That's what I call "Gap Action" Cary. The small one takes up the slack when the big ones aren't needed.

Never heard it called that but, that is exactly what it does.