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Thread: Master Plumber and hot water heater swap out

  1. #46
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    quote; you have a better chance of winning the power ball lottery than having a water heater blow up on you

    True. In fact if the heater is installed PROPERLY there is ZERO chance your heater will blow up. BUT, the key word is "properly", conditions can occur or be caused that will negate ALL safety devices. I had a customer who called me at 3:00 a.m. because her relief valve line was leaking at a joint. When I disconnected it and tried to blow through it, I found that something, or somewhere, the line was completely blocked. There was no visible termination point outside the building so the assumption was that it was cemented in some where. In addition, her gas valve had failed and the burner would not shut off. I told her, that if that joint had NOT been poorly soldered aand leaked, so she had to call me, she and her house would have been on the early morning TV news with pictures.

  2. #47
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Default you guys are a hoot....

    you guys are a hoot.... lets get osha involved in this .....

    The only two water heaters I have ever seen that blew up
    are in my show room window..... http://weilhammerplumbing.com/

    these water heaters were installed properly, but were never serciced, were very old and
    never maintained in any way and one fine day they simply decided to go off like a rocket...

    look at the chimmney in this pic and tell me who is smileing at you


    look at the t+p valve in this picture and tell me what you think has
    already happenned to the safety system on this unit....






    look at the junk in this one , what kept this one from going through the roof
    was probably their guardian angel

    of course anything is possible, but most things on average will never happen
    unless you simply refuse to maintain your plumbing system and just wait for the thing to
    start steaming out your faucets like a locomotive......

    shit will happen....
    it will happen more ofen when it is left in the
    hands of some handy man.. or some hardware store weekend warrior

    I know the difference between right and wrong, and I know when you can
    take the issue totally past the point of common sense....

    the odds are better winning the power ball....
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  3. #48
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Cool hj, mybusters and urban legends....

    Quote Originally Posted by hj View Post
    quote; Anyone have statistics on the frequency of such a thing happening? I don't recall if the Mythbusters gave statistics

    ONE time is enough. You can start with the Bell Telephone Exchange building on Wall Street that was demolished by a pressure vessel with a capped relief valve. They had to bring in an emergency switchboard for months while the building was repaired. But, in the 50s Domestic Engineering magazine had a picture almost every week of an electric water heater which had exploded and destroyed a building, and in one case decapitated a boy sleeping on the porch on the other side of the wall from the heater.
    HJ.....actually these days, it probably happens once a year somewhere... its so rare that it usually makes the paper..... The one heater I have in my window was in a lawsuit because of the injuries it inflicted on the gas man....



    My stats on this

    everyone in the usa has a water heater in their home, but you rarely ever hear of this ever happenning, that is probably why it is so interesting and has become something of an urban legend..

    but not everyone plays the power ball... maybe only 10% of the population gambles on it.... but every week or so someone wins the power ball.... sometimes it takes a few weeks and the prize goes up , and so does the power ball fever...

    so the odds of a water heater blowing up are astronomical compared to the odds of you winning thepower ball.. which is also pretty slim too.
    .



  4. #49
    DIY Member augusta's Avatar
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    Default happening once a year does not equal urband legend

    Osha? Someone should call PETA.

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    We have rare hot water heater explosion occurrences because we have code in place and things have been improving, not from people dumbing things down. Just keep in mind that these systems are only as strong as their weakest link. Again, not a single person here is arguing that hot water heater explosions happen frequently. It's the attitude of "it's no big deal to break code" that's part of the dumbing down process that many do not like.

  5. #50
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by augusta View Post
    It's the attitude of "it's no big deal to break code" that's part of the dumbing down process that many do not like.
    I have not noticed any attitude like that on the forum. There always will be homeowners with an 'attitude', but that is why on here, when someone take the trouble to ask, I think we always try to steer him in the right direction.

  6. #51
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
    I'd say BallValve needs to watch the Watts Video from about 5:08 on to see what his engineering is missing with his absolute confidence in relief valves....



    In spite of the relief valve it still went boom...
    The Ballvalve system is 2 relief valves, more if you wish. Like FUKU-nuclearplant, a few more generators, flexible connectors, floating containment, and secure fuel tanks make for near fail safe conditions. Its all in redundency. There is no redundency in one, 150 psi valve.

    With a 100 psi valve, it take the drips and leaks and when things go bad, the PT is still new. If you have a expansion tank, with a little luck it or your toilet supply lines blow long before the water heater.

    And we can all see what a JOKE the "drain valves" are on water heaters. I have a Commercial water heater and its drain valve is 2" - the only way to get the crud out with the help of some wire. Or a vacuum.

    Here is a relief valve designed about 1605, and still the most foolproof:

    http://www.pdblowers.com/c42-weighted-relief-valves.php

    Not allowed on a water heater, but still on your kitchen cooker because its the safest.

    And the bible on pressure relief valves and tanks:

    http://www.watts.com/pages/learnAbou...n.asp?catId=64

    And here is some QUICK and EASY redundency - just screw it on your open drain valve:

    http://www.watts.com/pages/_products...ls.asp?pid=797
    Last edited by ballvalve; 04-16-2011 at 11:08 AM.

  7. #52
    DIY Member augusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    I have not noticed any attitude like that on the forum. There always will be homeowners with an 'attitude', but that is why on here, when someone take the trouble to ask, I think we always try to steer him in the right direction.
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    Oh?

    Quote Originally Posted by master plumber mark View Post
    4. The PVC issue is basiacally a joke .... it will work ok for probably 100 years... but the cpvc is what you are supposed to use if it gets inspected....
    CPVC is what you are supposed to use on a T&P Relief Valve. PERIOD - (in my case) because the IPC says so. I think I laid out the case for that, beyond the point where any reasonable person would argue any differently. The above quote most certainly was written and intended to convey that it's no big deal to not follow the code because, it's "a joke", "it will work ok for probably 100 years", and oh, only do it to code if "it gets inspected." Can't read or interpret that any other way. Sorry. Maybe you missed it somewhere between here:
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    and here:
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    Hey, where's Ian Gills chiming in when I need him? ;-) I hope you know I see these things with a bit of humor.
    Last edited by augusta; 04-16-2011 at 04:10 PM.

  8. #53

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    We don't want to see Mark flying off into the Sunset. We hope he uses CPVC for his relief lines, or copper.
    We love you buddy!

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    Joe the Plumber

  9. #54
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Cool if you really knew what you were talking about

    CPVC is what you are supposed to use on a T&P Relief Valve. PERIOD - (in my case) because the IPC says so. I think I laid out the case for that, beyond the point where any reasonable person would argue any differently. The above quote most certainly was written and intended to convey that it's no big deal to not follow the code because, it's "a joke", "it will work ok for probably 100 years", and oh, only do it to code if "it gets inspected." Can't read or interpret that any other way. Sorry. Maybe you missed it somewhere between here:


    I think we are beating a dead horse here... I am sorry that this whole thing has put such a huge bind in your panties.........

    if you looked back to what me and redwood already discussed
    and you understood what we were talking about,

    you would already have your answer on this

    this is a discharge line for a pressure relief valve which usually
    goes directly down to the floor... of course the cpvc is code
    and is what we use all the time...or you can use copper if you so wish, or you can use PEX........ ,

    but the normal pvc will perform the exact same function as an emergency drain... but over time it might begin to warp if hot water is constantly ran through it ...look back your self a few pages ...


    Now lets take this subject to the next level of stupidity...

    If you read my last few posts and saw Alvin the squirrel in that
    chimmney stareing at you ..... then you would understand that
    the reason most of these problems happen is because of no
    one is ever maintaining their ageing equipment...

    I feel that their ought to be more laws to protect the consumer from themselves........

    I propose that their ought to be a law mandated by osha and the government that every water heater in the contry had to be inspected and the relief valve had to be changed out every 3 years.... and it could only be done by a lisc plumber.. not by the home owner.. or some handy man hack

    Now, in our hearts, we both know that this law would and could save countless lives....

    and it would only cost the consumer a small amount of money to have this done...maybe $150 bucks for the inspection...

    you would be willing to cough up 150 bucks to stay safe right
    buddy ??..

    and it also would make a lot of work for
    plumbers like me across the USA and I could go out and buy
    my power ball tickets.

    and then the circle of life is complete ..




    ...


    ...

  10. #55
    DIY Member augusta's Avatar
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    Default oh please, son.

    Ah, the ole' backpeddle, insult, and change the subject ploy. What on earth did the above entire diatribe have to do with my quote contained within? I already said I hope you know I see these things with a bit of humor. Yeah, that sounds like I'm just oh so upset. Of course I have my answers, I quoted the IPC and posted it here answering my own questions in great detail. Where have you been? Please quote me on exactly what it is concerning your attitude, where I do not know what I'm talking about. That's the only thing left here to discuss...at least that's what Jimbo was asking about, and I answered him succinctly. Never mind, been in too many circles already. Feel like I'm in a room with the ex-wife. Your last post changes nothing concerning what Jimbo and I were referring to...but if you like to have the last word (and unrelated), have at it buddy. It's all good.

    Hey, look, a rabbit!
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    Last edited by augusta; 04-16-2011 at 07:14 PM.

  11. #56
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe the Plumber View Post
    We don't want to see Mark flying off into the Sunset. We hope he uses CPVC for his relief lines, or copper.
    We love you buddy!

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    I think I see Ian as General Jack D. Ripper.

  12. #57
    DIY Member augusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by master plumber mark View Post


    If you read my last few posts and saw Alvin the squirrel in that
    chimmney stareing at you ..... then you would understand that
    the reason most of these problems happen is because of no
    one is ever maintaining their ageing equipment...
    Sorry, couldn't resist this as I'm sending off yet another check to our government today for more taxes they say I owe them. Your prior point was already solved on page one of this thread. Reading comprehension is a must here. No, this post is not about people not maintaining their equipment, it's specifically about a problem with a Master Plumber installing relief piping completely and blatantly against code. You can go chasing those other rabbits, er, arguments that you create if you want to. The rest of us will stay focused.

    I feel that their ought to be more laws to protect the consumer from themselves........
    You're kidding, right? Well, I give you partial credit for "feeling" and not "thinking."
    I propose that their ought to be a law mandated by osha and the government that every water heater in the contry had to be inspected and the relief valve had to be changed out every 3 years.... and it could only be done by a lisc plumber.. not by the home owner.. or some handy man hack

    Now, in our hearts, we both know that this law would and could save countless lives....

    and it would only cost the consumer a small amount of money to have this done...maybe $150 bucks for the inspection...

    you would be willing to cough up 150 bucks to stay safe right
    buddy ??..

    and it also would make a lot of work for
    plumbers like me across the USA and I could go out and buy
    my power ball tickets.

    and then the circle of life is complete ..
    I pray no one's paying you for bigger picture solutions. The answer to taking care of potential issues with pressure relief valves isn't to create yet another law and give our out of control spending government yet another reason to spend our tax money while categorically bankrupting everything they are put in charge of:
    Amtrak – bankrupt
    medicare – bankrupt
    medicaid – bankrupt
    post office – bankrupt
    social security – bankrupt
    Fannie Mae – bankrupt
    Freddie Mac – bankrupt.
    So your suggestion, based on the above observations, is to put it in the hands of the United States Government, huh? Makes sense you'd say that based on your other points of view. I'd rather deal with a crappy private sector employee than a crappy public sector one. At least I can fire the private sector employee. Change needs to begin from the bottom up, really. If a homeowner does a crappy job and not to code, it's his house. He'll pay the ultimate price for his ignorance. No harm no foul. Quite another thing when Plumbers do it. Plumbers and inspectors need to be held accountable for their terrible jobs that all begin with this attitude:
    . The PVC issue is basiacally a joke .... it will work ok for probably 100 years... but the cpvc is what you are supposed to use if it gets inspected....
    Meaning, if code is broken (whether resulting in damage or not), home owner sues Plumber, takes everything Plumber has, and now Plumber can't Plumb anymore because no one will insure him (thank God for credit scores and insurance scores. All private sector companies by the way- experian, equifax, and transunion). I'll call it - survival of the fittest. One less crappy Plumber in circulation. Crappy Plumber gets a job at a Box store, paid by the hour again, learns new clock riding techniques by hanging out in the back room until someone presses the "can I help you" button on isle 32. Box store Plumber gets to explain to customers the difference between a toilet supply line and a lavatory supply line while speaking to customer in a condescending manner. Box store Plumber still gets paid while feeling self important. Everyone wins.

    My negative outlook on Plumbers in Augusta has been reasonably substantiated post after post, picture after picture. And before you go asking the obvious: "So why are you here asking for the advice of a Plumber?" Answer: because very few of them actually get it right. Terry, Jimbo, Redwood, and a few others seem to get it right. Just wish Plumbers with integrity weren't of the minority.
    Last edited by augusta; 04-17-2011 at 04:09 PM.

  13. #58
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    FWIW, if SS was funded the way the law was written, and the funds not usurped for general fund use, it would be rolling in money today. If we could find a way to get rid of the fraud in Medicare/Medicaid, it wouldn't be anywhere near as much in trouble it is. The fraud isn't in the government, it is in the practitioners. The government has chosen to not fund the fraud division well enough to stop it.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  14. #59
    DIY Member augusta's Avatar
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    Default the mind of a plumber...

    Thought it was over. Just got a SECOND bill from the Plumber for this same job today. Since he had to come back out a second time, in his mind he's justified in expecting additional money on this job, since now he had to do it to code and run that new CPVC line (not even 4 feet) right outside the adjacent wall. But he "discounted" it so I should be happy about that. LOL!

    I've got minimum 2 hours in checking behind him; taking pictures, getting second opinions, keeping up with giving him the combination code to get in the door over a 23 day period it took him to do the work, etc. If I were in his same crazy Plumber world, I suppose it makes sense for me to send him a bill for my 2 hours where I "helped."

    P.S. For what it's worth, his wife "runs" the office of his plumbing company, where he's the Master Plumber. Guaranteed this second bill was her idea. Seems more of an emotional decision than a rational one...but then...I won't even pretend to understand the mind of a Plumber.

    [Snapshot of a portion of the 2nd bill received today:]

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    Last edited by augusta; 04-18-2011 at 11:50 AM.

  15. #60
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Oh, I see. It's extra if he plumbs it to code.
    It's sort of like the guys around here. You want it earthquake strapped? Well that's extra lady.
    I give my pricing with the idea that it's a code compliant job with disposal of the old tank. That includes the earthquake strapping.
    Other companies can beat my pricing over the phone, and then tack on $400-$500 dollars in "extras".
    The extras they charge extra for are the standard items that are in my quoted price. Things like new water heater flex, which by the way you did not get.
    Things like new gas flex, earthquake strap, and a happy attitude.
    Last edited by Terry; 04-18-2011 at 01:35 PM.

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