Building a barrier free bathroom - AKW Tuff Form or Linear Shower Drain

**johnfrwhipple** · 03-01-2011, 06:21 AM

Building a barrier free bathroom - AKW Tuff Form or Linear Shower Drain - which is the best option.

I have been building barrier free bathrooms for a number of years and of late focusing my installs on linear shower drains. Currently I have only built four barrier free bathrooms - three times with a simple point drain and topical waterproofing (Kerdi Drain). And once with a linear drain.

Working with the linear shower drains it is possible to use large format tile and one way slope. This does however pose it's own challenges in layout and grading prep. I have been debating this practice in great length over on my Linked In pages and wanted to get some insight from the Plumbers.

Have any of you men installed this ready made shower pan from AKW (AKW Tuff Form)? It looks straight forward and can be attached to the floor joist with simple screws. I can not find a cUPC clearance letter for it and wonder how you can flood test a pan like this.

In most of the online examples I notice that the floor is covered with lino or equivalent and not tile. I worry that the deflection of this base exceeds the L/720 requirement for large format tile.

Who has installed one? Have you seen one tiled?

A link to the shower pan from AKW MediCare http://europe.akw-medicare.com/euron...uffForm_US.pdf

Thanks for any help?

JW

**johnfrwhipple** · 03-02-2011, 06:47 AM

I received an email from a builder in Eau Claire, Wisconsin Area who has done hundreds of these installs and hope to learn a ton from him. I'm waiting on his expanded email and will share some more insight into how these pans get installed and how you go about flood testing the connection point.

I have read that it is hard to drop these larger shower pans onto a mortar bed and get even coverage. It appears that this pan from AKW does not require this step like so many others.

I am working closely with the tech boys at Mapei these past few weeks and getting some private training on their Waterproofing line of products. The shower base from AKW is spec'd I believe with Mapei's products so I'm starting there first.

We will showcase a linear channel drain and a AKF TUFF FORM pan both waterproofed and tiled with Mapei's product line.

I hope to get these extra information and pictures later today.

I have contacted AKW directly as well this morning and requested a training package and dealer list for their North America operations. AKW can be contacted direct at this number;

From Vancouver and Canada call 011 32 68 334 899 (AKW International Sales & Marketing)

A video tour of a AKW Tuff Form installed...

Stand by.

John Whipple

**johnfrwhipple** · 03-02-2011, 07:35 AM

I came across this video this morning researching wheelchair showers in my hometown of Vancouver and found this video;

http://www.youtube.com/user/rednicho.../3/dOVu7bMKy9A

http://www.youtube.com/user/rednicho.../3/dOVu7bMKy9A

What a great honest review and good example of how simply a contractor can screw up a design and on the flip side how such a bare bones basic washroom can function far better than a another.

So really more expensive does not always make for better. From this video I will advise future clients to put more thought into larger rooms than nicer tile!

JW

**johnfrwhipple** · 03-09-2011, 06:08 AM

I have heard back from a Universal Builder in Ontario that has installed this AKW Tuff From pan (with tile) and he tells me that they did notice some flex in the pan construction. On this project they had access from below and further stiffened the pan up with blocking and extra construction adhesive. I think it would be wise to measure this deflection before tiling. With 16" centers on your floor joists the pan should not flex more than 1.3 32nds of an inch to achieve an L/360 rating require for ceramic tile installation.

Math Calculation:

16" floor joist have a span of 14.5" between joists.

14.5" x 32 (1/32") = 448 ( 448 x 1/32" = 14.5" )

448 / 360 = 1.3

14.5" x 64 (1/64") = 928

928 / 360 = 2.58

You can see that very little deflection is allowed for with a tile install. Some thinsets offer up a certain degree on flex and I'm thinking these premium products should be used. That said with some blocking from below most if not all of this deflection can be removed I'm sure.

Another Universal builder sent me some pictures of a beautiful shower showcasing the square drain from AKW and it look very nice indeed. If I was hiring a crew to build me a shower these deflection numbers should be referenced for your own piece of mind. If the crew installs the AKW tuff form pan with no extra blocking and the tile cracks - who is to blame?

The GC?

The Framer?

The tile guy?

The Manufacture?

The inspector?

A Safer install would spec L/720 and this is OK for large format tile and natural stone. I wonder how these Universal Builders are achieving this???

JW

**johnfrwhipple** · 04-06-2011, 09:25 PM

I have been trying to find some online videos showcasing a AKW Tuff Form being installed. A online video showing the install process would help answer a lot of questions I still have.

Is the AKW Tuff Form to be installed tight to the floor joists or above regular 5/8" plywood? How many screws does it take to screw down each side?

I found this link online with some installation tips.

http://europe.akw-medicare.com/euron...uffForm_US.pdf

It seems you only need one screw per side at the least (? - their kidding right). The install specs say not to over-tighten the screws and also say the screws can take out the flex...

I like the recommendation for support around the drain. This make sense.

**johnfrwhipple** · 06-25-2011, 11:39 AM

There is so many options out there for building a level access shower. The shower pan from AKW just one of many but viewed to be the best amongst this sector of the shower construction segment.

The question you need to ask yourself is "What do you want your shower to look like?". This is key.

Every week here in Vancouver I field calls from homeowners wishing a visit from me and a walk through of a new bathroom. There is only so many hours in a week and as much as I like discussing bathroom construction I prefer to simplify the process.

These days I send all new inquires to Houzz.com. A website with thousands of pictures and just about every kind of install. I find the serious people do this step and spend hours adding pictures to their "Ideabooks". Then they call me back and say they did their homework and would now like me to come back and review.

Now I really understand what they want because I can see things like cabinet details, tile choices, glass details and such.

A picture is worth a thousand words and this simple step can make laying out your new drain placement or fixture controls easier with your plumber as well. Show your plumber your idea book and discuss what you like with them. We are not mind readers and these simple steps can take an everyday install and turn it into one that sparkles.

Check it out. www.houzz.com

If you find that you love a real traditional shower perhaps a AKW shower pan works really well for you. Perhaps you like a more modern look or something with a contemporary feel - then a linear drain I think would be better.

Start with a plan. Find the right crew. Then go shopping for fixtures.

JW

**johnfrwhipple** · 09-16-2011, 07:04 AM

I found a few installations photos here of the AKW Tuff Form.

http://www.houzz.com/photos/users/reliableliving

**johnfrwhipple** · 09-29-2011, 06:42 PM

A look at the Tuff Form Pan.

I found the IAMPO Certificate number for the AKW "Mullen" and the "Tuff Form"

I just received my first Tuff Form Pan. I ordered a 36"x36" pan with waterproofing kit. I'll take a closer look and report back in.

JW

**johnfrwhipple** · 10-01-2011, 10:00 AM

The Mapegum WPS has been designed to bite to the AKW Tuff Form Pan and to my knowledge none of the other liquids are acceptable for this application. Dry times for the product are stated as 1 - 2 hours. It is my experience that the first round of liquid waterproofing should be allowed to fully dry. I like to leave my installs overnight. Two much liquid to soon can generate spider web cracking and failure. It is always better I think to do lighter coats and a third coat if the coverage is not being met. The use of a film gauge is the best. Mapei and Laticrete make great ones and they are available at better tile supplier shops. Also they can often be found in finer paint supply shops.

If you look up the data sheet for Mapegum WPS you will see in their pictures the blue portion of the band is not covered in Mapegum. I think this is odd and would think that the full band should be covered or at least all but perhaps the center inch. I have all ready sent emails out to my local Mapei reps to try and get comfirmation on this.

John Whipple
North Vancouver

**johnfrwhipple** · 10-03-2011, 10:39 AM

Time to test out this new waterproofing product.

Testing turn out really well. No leaks. Still can not find the IAPMO Certificate for Mapegum....

**johnfrwhipple** · 04-20-2013, 05:23 AM

Thanks to one of Terry Love's members for pointing me in the direction of the IAPMO Certification for Mapegum. You can find it here....

http://pld.iapmo.org/file_info.asp?file_no=0007944

I gave up waiting for someone from the supplier to send it to me. Thought they forgot.

So after a long wait we can finally install this bad boy we have in the garage.

**ShowerKing** · 05-02-2013, 08:33 PM

I ran across a new company called Vim products at Coverings that looked like they had a good product for doing curbless showers. They have the following installation on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_wu9...e_gdata_player

that I thought was pretty good at explaining how to install. Have you heard of them? They said there code approvals are on their website but I haven't had a chance to look yet. I'd like to know if anyones ever installed their product that could give feedback.

**johnfrwhipple** · 05-03-2013, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by ShowerKing

I ran across a new company called Vim products at Coverings that looked like they had a good product for doing curbless showers. They have the following installation on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_wu9...e_gdata_player

that I thought was pretty good at explaining how to install. Have you heard of them? They said there code approvals are on their website but I haven't had a chance to look yet. I'd like to know if anyones ever installed their product that could give feedback.

Looks like an AKW system to me.

The recessed subfloor and blocking around the drain is key. Careful using the liquid waterproofing membranes when it's warmer.