Advice on Bladder tank

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Tom Sawyer

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Cranking an 20/40 pressure switch to 58 lbs. is way beyond what the springs are designed to handle which is likely a major part of the problem. You really shouldn't go more than around 5 lbs either direction.
 

Billfig

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Wow that's alot of good info! My pump is a Gould 10gs05422 1/2hp-probably a 10gpm? My well is 50' away, then 80' down. The other is I run from tank thru a whole house filter, then thru a Sears softener, then again thru another whole house filter, then feed the 2 story house. so I do have some rescrictions along the way...
 

LLigetfa

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Cranking an 20/40 pressure switch to 58 lbs. is way beyond what the springs are designed to handle which is likely a major part of the problem. You really shouldn't go more than around 5 lbs either direction.
Ja, it crossed my mind to mention that but feared I would get flamed if I did.

I too have a Goulds 10GS and yes, they are rated as 10 GPM but I cannot get 10 GPM out of mine. My iron filter and micronizer limit the flow. The pump will run constantly near the 50 PSI cutoff during backwash. If/when it doesn't, I don't get as good a backwash which turns into a downward spiral. My pump will produce 60 PSI with adequate flow for most use but then the micronizer isn't aerating the water for the iron filter.

I agree that there are a lot of restrictions and with the second storey elevation, 60 PSI would bring more joy. It would be curious to know what PSI remains at the point of use and how much is lost to the restrictions. Sometimes, more is less, or less is more. If the showerhead is too high in GPM, the restrictions in-line drop the pressure and a lower GPM showerhead might actually give you better pressure at the head. Maybe that's what justwater was saying.
 

Billfig

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You have a whole lot of restrictions there. Why the two house filters?

Not really sure why I put the other one on after the softener? I run the most basic filter 1st then a little better one(charcoal I think) after softener..

1 is good..then 2 must be better theory?lol
 
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Tom Sawyer

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Two is probably not better and even one may not be needed. Try taking the elements out and see if things improve.
 

Justwater

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then u can try bypassing the softener and see if it is also a major restrictor.
 

Billfig

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Geez, didn't I just replace those Tuesday:mad: I'll remove the 2nd cartridge. I was thinkin of renewing the switch & gauge but we are getting 6-10" of heavy white stuff by 5:00!:rolleyes: On another note, as far as tanks, wanta get a descent one-which takes some searching..A good place I get my higher quality stuff from sells the Amtrol wx202 @ 194.00. Another place I tried also in the boonies can get Goulds & said v60 @ 150.00 or v80 (26gal) @ 198.00. That's it so far, though I think the Gould would be better and a direct swap.
 

LLigetfa

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Given what you describe of your setup, I personally think a cycle stop valve and a smaller tank would give you more joy with constant pressure if'n the tank needs replacing.
 

Valveman

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A 20 gallon size tank only holds 5 gallons of water. That is not enough for a 10 GPM pump. For the recommended 2 minutes of run time, you need an 80 gallon size tank, which still only holds about 25 gallons of water.

You have millions of gallons of water stored in the well. Your water comes from the well, not the pressure tank. If your pump quits, you are out of water, no matter how large a pressure tank you have. The pressure tanks only function is to reduce the number of on/off pump cycles. Using a larger pressure tank to reduce the cycling only means your pressure swings take longer.

When using 50 gallons to take a shower, an 80 gallon tank will supply the first 25 gallons as the pressure drops from 60 to 40. About the time you get the water temperature adjusted for the annoying decrease in pressure, the pump kicks on and the pressure starts to climb from 40 to 60. Now you have to start adjusting the temperature again for the increasing water pressure. Before you finish rinsing off, the pressure has climbed back up to 60. So you finally start seeing good pressure, about the time you are finished with the shower. A 20 gallon, 5 gallon draw tank, will cause the pressure to annoyingly swing from 60 to 40 and 40 to 60, many times during the same 50 gallon shower.

A 4.4 gallon tank holds 1 gallon of water. So the pump doesn’t need to start for rinsing a toothbrush or to fill the icemaker. But when you start a shower, the gallon in the tank is quickly used up, and the pump is started. Now the CSV is delivering a constant 50 PSI before you even step in the shower. No matter how long you stay in the shower, the CSV continues to deliver a constant 50 PSI, and keeps the pump from cycling.

A constant 50 PSI makes for a much more enjoyable shower, that when the pressure keeps swinging from 40 to 60 and 60 to 40. A tank that only holds 1 gallon of water may cause the pump to cycle a few extra times a day for flushing toilets and washing machines. However, the CSV makes up for that by eliminating so many cycles during longer uses of water like showers and sprinklers.

Larger pressure tanks don’t solve the problem of cycling. They only cause the annoying fluctuations in pressure to drag out longer and longer. When you use a CSV, the cycling problem goes away. The larger the tank, the longer it takes to drain, and the longer it is before you start enjoying constant pressure in your shower.

I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard someone with a large pressure tank say, “I was half way through my shower and all lathered up, when the water stopped coming out”. Meaning when the tank was empty the pump did not start. Nothing is more inconvenient than having to dip water out of the back of the toilet to rinse the soap out of your hair. This doesn’t happen with a small tank and CSV, because the pump starts before you get in the shower.

Even when they are clean, the restriction from all those filters is much worse at the low end of a pressure switch setting. With a CSV and a small tank your system will go through the low end of the pressure switch and be up to the desired constant pressure before you step into the shower.

You said, “adjusting the pressure up made shower taking a joy”. Imagine the joy of constant pressure. Increasing the size of pressure tank is not the best option.
 

Justwater

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my great grandma was the only person I knew that brushed her teeth or washed (not wet) her hands with less than a gallon of water.. she had a well but lived like she paid 5$ a gallon for water. ..then u have toilet flushes. I think the only thing in normal usage that won't cycle a 1gal drawdown is the icemaker.

and for those hands wash/ tooth brush cycles... isnt it impossible for a 10gpm pump with csv/1 gallon drawdown to run more than 30-40 seconds during a cycle.. even with perfect precharge and switch settings, valve shutting at the exact psi, and allowing exactly 1gpm through when closed?
 
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LLigetfa

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my great grandma was the only person I knew that brushed her teeth or washed (not wet) her hands with less than a gallon of water.. she had a well but lived like she paid 5$ a gallon for water. ..then u have toilet flushes..
Ja, grew up in the country, lived by the motto "If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down". Mind you that was after we got an indoor toilet. During the day we were still expected to go to the outhouse.

I don't agree with going with the smallest possible size tank and ja, I'd pry the wallet open and go with brass over plastic.
 

Valveman

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With a 40/60 pressure switch, a CSV set at 40 PSI, and a tank with 1 gallon of draw, you will get exactly 1 minute of runtime. But as you say, if someone runs water for a minute before they turn off the faucet, then that minute is added on top of the time it takes to fill the tank.

For many years I recommended a tank with 5 gallons of draw down. But after hundreds of pump installers told me they have been using CSV’s with little tanks for many years without any problems, I had to concede to their expertise. Most of those installers were using the 2.2 gallon size tanks. I am still being a little conservative by recommending the 4.4 gallon size.

I do not make these recommendations lightly. It took hundreds of pump installers doing this for many years, before I became comfortable with the smaller tank. Pump installers have been trying for decades to solve the problems of pumps cycling on and off. Many of these installers instantly realized the CSV would solve the problems as far back as 15 to 18 years ago. These are the ones who use CSV’s on every pump, and have been experimenting with just how small a tank can be used.

The installers that surprise me are the ones who still think larger tanks are better. They know cycling is the number one problem with pump systems, and that Cycle Stop Valves stop pumps from cycling. But they still think valves are hard on pumps or increased backpressure is not a good thing, even though they have been proven wrong many thousands of times since 1993. I guess some old dogs just can’t be taught a new trick.

Thank goodness for the Internet. Now homeowners can get the information they need to actually solve their problem. So if the old dog installer just “can’t make it work in his mind”, as I have been told before, the homeowner can find an installer who can, or get the information to do it themselves.
 

Justwater

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i didnt realize the pump cut in was equal to the csv on tiny tanks, so that makes sense.

there is no denying that a csv with 20gal tank has far fewer cycles than a csv with 4.4gal tank when used for a home. this is why i choose this setup for my new installs. my customers get the best of both worlds.

nice rib on the quote..
 

Texas Wellman

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I lived in the country my whole life on a water well and never even could tell you when the pressure was either at 30 or 50....and I never had to adjust the knobs either.

50 gallons for a shower? I figure the avg. shower lasts about 15 minutes at about 2.5 GPM (restricted head). Little less than 40 gallons....maybe on one of those garden tubs you would need 50.
 

Valveman

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No argument the CSV with a 20 gallon tank is the best of both worlds. I just no longer think a couple extra gallons of drawdown are important.
 
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Tom Sawyer

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Honestly, I have never seen a CSV installed anywhere around here. I guess the marketing in this area is lacking. I have a question though. when you open a faucet for say 1/2 a minute or so does the pump run and for how long? How about toilet flushes? will the pump run long enough to fill the toilet and then shut off? I ask because it seems that for short duration usage the pump will actually cycle more than it would with a regular tank set up. I can see where for longer draw times that the pump should run longer cycles also but, if the pump and tank on a regular system are properly sized the pump will continue to run as long as the faucet is open and then shut off when the tank is full. Cycling can only occur if the pump output is faster than the draw. If I open my hose faucet the tank will draw down until cut in and then the pump starts and continues to run until I shut the hose off. Then the tank pressure builds again and the pump shuts off at cut out. I have tried to find graphs that relate actual pump cycles between a CSV system and a regular system but it seem that nobody has actually done that comparison.
 

Billfig

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Ok here's my setup..to renew as is, disconnect electrical, drain off tank, disconnect coupling, then? Is it better or easier to disconnect at plastic tubing which I assume is 1st heated with a torch or should I hacksaw the copper pipe going to underside of tank? Should I try to reuse anything-like the brass Tee? I'm waiting on a price Monday on a Gould v100s 32gal.
 

Cacher_Chick

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When you get a new tank, get a new tank tee at the same time. It will make your installation go much smoother.

549427.jpg
 

Billfig

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wow, all brass, looks good! I never messed with one. The guy who dug the well took care of all that or maybe an old friend who did the initial plumbing? so I should figure on another 70.00 for all that misc.stuff...
With the tank drained & pump disconnected, will there be any pressure on the pump side of that brass check valve when I loosen that hose clamp?
 
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