(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 58

Thread: Should a garbage disposal be on a GFCI?

  1. #16
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,687

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    ...and you think this give you the authority/experience to be giving advice on electrical mesage boards???
    No, I was not claiming expertise and you quoted me out of context. What I said was "read through the code books at the time, but am too lazy to scour through it now" with the emphasis on lazy. I don't know why eveyone is twisting this into a "CODE" issue. I never claimed to know, nor did I quote NY code and only gave a code example to show how far Ontario code goes in this regard. If you feel minimum code is fine that's your (professional) opinion. It would appear Ontario electrical safety inspectors may have a differing professional opinion. If I were to err, I would prefer to err on the side of caution, spending a few extra dollars for an air switch or GFCI. Again, my operative word was "should" and that is my personal (not professional) opinion.

  2. #17
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,687

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    NO GFI needed for a disposer.
    If that's a NY code question/answer, I will defer to the code experts.

    BTW, I don't have an air switch, but only because I don't have an in-sink garbage disposer.

  3. #18
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    NY State, USA
    Posts
    976

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    No, I was not claiming expertise and you quoted me out of context.
    I realize that you were not, and NO I did not. Yet you really do not know the codes and even common practices but you are giving advice here on electrical matters.


    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    I don't know why eveyone is twisting this into a "CODE" issue.
    "Twisting"??? You CANNOT be serious.
    It IS a code issue!


    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    If you feel minimum code is fine that's your (professional) opinion.
    Yes, I certainly do feel code minimums are absolutely safe. Without question.
    That said, rarely do most professionals wire to absolute code minimum.


    This is NOT a NY thing. Bottom line, in the US disposals are typically NOT wire through a GFI. Simple as that.

  4. #19
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    NY State, USA
    Posts
    976

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post

    BTW, I don't have an air switch, but only because I don't have an in-sink garbage disposer.
    Air switches work with ANY disposal that can be plugged in, which is all of them.

  5. #20
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Sorry, I cannot answer your first question but as for this one, I think it could have a propensity to trip. All my outdoor recptacles are GFCI and when I use them to power motorized tools like saws and drills, they easily trip when shutting off the tool. I think it has to do with the collapsing magnetic field on the motor coils and/or the motor becoming a generator. Possibly not all GFCIs are created equal and YMMV.
    Should you have some tool that is tripping your outside receptacles then your tool needs attention or replacement. The GFCI device is doing what it was designed to do.
    What is a YMMV?
    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    If it is a regular wall switch then it should be GFCI protected. Don't most disposers have an air coupled push button?
    I do believe you have crossed over the boundary of knowing and guessing or inserting opinion in a matter in which you have little or no knowledge. Neither the US or Canadian codes require a switch to be ground fault protected,

    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Not really. The operative question was "should", not "must" as was my advice. There is no point in me quoting Canadian Electrical Code to the OP who lives in NY.
    This makes me wonder just what your point is in this post. Why do you think the switch should be GFCI Protected? In your next statement you say that the Canadian code requires it to be protected but refuse to post a quote from the code.

    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    If you can ground one hand on the sink or tap and reach the unprotected switch with the other perhaps wet hand, common sense dictates that a GFCI "should" be used. Canadian code may dictate it too. When I built my home 12 years ago, I did my own wiring and read through the code books at the time, but am too lazy to scour through it now.
    If the sink is not in contact with earth is some matter how is it grounded? I think you are grasping at straws here as you sure don’t understand the concepts of grounding and bonding.

    1.
    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Here is an excerpt from my google search. GFCI Protection of Kitchen Counter Receptacles
    Rule 26-700(12)
    The 2002 edition of the Ontario Electrical Safety Code includes an Ontario amendment to Rule 26-700, which requires Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) protection for Kitchen Counter receptacles effective January 1, 2003. The new Subrule (26-700(12) states that effective January 2003:
    (12) Receptacles located in kitchens and installed within 1 m of a kitchen sink along the wall behind counter work surfaces shall be protected by a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class A type.
    Appendix B note: Distance of 1 m is measured from edge of kitchen sink.
    The following guidelines shall be used for consistent interpretation and application of this new subrule effective January 1, 2003.
    1. This rule applies to all receptacle installations located within 1 m of a kitchen sink along the wall behind counter work surfaces where the plans or application for inspection is received on or after January 1, 2003.
    Dang if I can find one word from this quote that says a “switch” is required to be GFCI protected. Shucks I only see the requirement for countertop receptacles which wouldn’t include one under the cabinet.


    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    I realize the outlet is "Under" the counter but the switch presumably will be "Above" the counter. I'm sure I can find some code reference to a light/fan/switch near a sink or bathtub/shower etc. We GFCI protect anything that is within easy reach of a sink/tub/shower/etc. Why would a disposer be any different?
    But your code section says nothing about a switch. The switch is something you have come up with. The receptacle for the disposer is under the sink not above the sink.


    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    We see here in a lot of new construction that the light switch is on the outside of the bathroom. Mine is on the inside, albeit protected by GFCI. The same with my laundry room. Now, I stopped short of using GFCI on the washer because it would likely trip it. I don't generally operate the wash machine while I have a hand in the sink or on the tap. A garbage disposer however is more prone to be operated whilst touching the faucet which is why they came out with those air switches. If you guys want to build to minimum code, that's your choice.

    I would choose not to use a GFCI but then I would use an air switch.
    I say that if this is true then those living north of the boarder have completely lost what few brains they had left. As to the washing machine if the receptacle is located within 6 feet of a sink then the washing machine receptacle would be required to be GFCI protected. Should the washing machine trip the GFCI the there is something wrong with the washing machine.
    All this bull waste of collapsing magnetic fields tripping a GFCI device is some idiots way of trying to explain something they know nothing about. It simply doesn’t happen.

  6. #21
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,687

    Default

    I'm not going to bother to address each of your points. YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary
    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    If the sink is not in contact with earth is some matter how is it grounded? I think you are grasping at straws here as you sure don’t understand the concepts of grounding and bonding.
    I'm pretty sure code here dictated that my copper supply lines be bonded to ground. The copper supply lines connect to the faucet and the faucet connects to the sink.

    As for my understanding of grounding and bonding, it is a requirement of my profession. I design/build/install server rooms, backup generator systems and UPSs, as well as wired and wireless indoor/outdoor communications infrastructure, all of which must meet code with regard to bonding and grounding.

  7. #22
    DIY Member Joe Six Pack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Anchorage AK
    Posts
    31

    Default

    Oh Dude,
    I'm so glad you mentioned all this wiring stuff about a disposer. I'm not going to let my woman do dishes anymore. I have a non bonded or Gfi'ed sink too. It's cind of cold here, but I'm thinking I should wash dishes outside until I can get that sucker grounded,. Now I'm arfraid to go near my sink.
    Joe Six Pack

  8. #23
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    21,433

    Default

    Bonding and grounding things has little to do with when a GFCI is required. They each have their place and provide various levels of protection. If you WANT a GFCI, you certainly CAN put one in the circuit, but it is not required. Think of what a GFCI does: it checks the line to neutral power flow, and if it differs, it shuts the power off. You don't even NEED a ground for the thing to work. It assumes that if the input and return current aren't the same, some of it leaked, and that leak MIGHT be through you to ground. To protect you, it shuts off. So, ANY time one trips, whatever is plugged into it is suspect, as NO current devices are supposed to leak current, or at least enough to trip one, and therefore hurt you.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  9. #24
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,687

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Six Pack View Post
    Now I'm arfraid to go near my sink.
    Don't worry... I thinks it's better off not grounded. Maybe you could get the wife to wear rubber gloves. I know back on the farm, rubber boots took the sting out of the electric fence. Had fun with that fence and my cousins from the city who thought themselves so superior.

    As for defective tools, explain how a chop saw with just two wires (double insulated, no ground) would not trip the GFCI while it was running, but the moment you release the trigger, it might trip it. Putting a meter on it shows no continuity to the body. A quick Google search will turn up a lot of instances where refrigerators and wash machines trip some GFCIs. Again, I don't claim that every motor will trip every GFCI hence the YMMV.

  10. #25
    Electrical Contractor Jim Port's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    156

    Default

    As someone already said, if the tool or appliance is tripping the GFI there is a problem that the GFI is sensing and shutting off. Have the tool or appliance serviced or replaced.

  11. #26
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Posts
    25,671

    Default

    IF the switch is going to become a "hazard" the GFCI outlet under the sink would do absolutely NOTHING to prevent it from happening, since it is in line before the receptacle.

  12. #27
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,687

    Default

    If the switch is between the supply and the outlet, you are correct. There are other ways to GFCI protect than to use a GFCI outlet at the end of the line.

    From my panel, I have a hot and neutral going to a GFCI outlet. From the load side of the outlet, it goes to a switch. From the switch it goes to several outlets under my eaves. Everything downstream of the GFCI outlet and of course the outlet itself is protected. This passed inspection in 1998.

  13. #28
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Posts
    25,671

    Default

    In your situation, the switch is NOT controlling the GFCI outlet, the way it would for a disposer installation. You are comparing apples and oranges.

  14. #29
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    I'm not going to bother to address each of your points. YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary
    I'm pretty sure code here dictated that my copper supply lines be bonded to ground. The copper supply lines connect to the faucet and the faucet connects to the sink.

    As for my understanding of grounding and bonding, it is a requirement of my profession. I design/build/install server rooms, backup generator systems and UPSs, as well as wired and wireless indoor/outdoor communications infrastructure, all of which must meet code with regard to bonding and grounding.
    Okay now that you have expressed a knowledge of the bonding of metallic water pipe and an understanding of grounding devices and I assume an understanding of the bonding of the equipment grounding, grounding electrode, metallic enclosure and the system’s grounded conductor that you would know that the touch potential between the sink and the switch would be equal. In other words there would be no danger in touching the metal 6/32 screws holding the nonmetallic cover in place over the switch as there would be an equal optional between them.

  15. #30
    DIY Member Erico's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    73

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    So we have a guy that works in an IT department for his day job that used an air switch in his home.

    And all the electrical contractors that wire homes for a living, that know what the code says and can wire to code saying; No. a GFI is not used.
    Sounds like the question has been answered.

    NO GFI needed for a disposer.
    Thanks to all the sparky's that had a handle on this.
    Wow! Quite a discussion has broken out over my question. At first I was feeling like a step-child when the replies were a little light.

    Yes. I listen to the known sparkys on the site. And thanks to you and them for the site and the help.

    I did wire it w/o GFCI. Bt I DID install a GFCI in the same box for a future possible hot water dispenser.

    I'm not opposed to spending the few extra bucks or even wasting the few extra bucks if it makes it more safe. I was worried about possible trip issues with a motor such as a g/d.

Similar Threads

  1. Garbage Disposal
    By mtnparty in forum Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-10-2010, 03:19 PM
  2. Garbage Disposal ---Arg!
    By sinkerator in forum Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 01-02-2008, 11:45 AM
  3. Garbage disposal
    By Cookie in forum Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-19-2006, 08:16 PM
  4. Garbage disposal
    By armallard in forum Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-26-2006, 03:52 PM
  5. garbage disposal
    By andrew_karre in forum Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-06-2004, 04:59 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •