Problem with water spots on chrome fixtures

[water solutions]

Precipitation of hardness in water heater tanks would be so minimal, I would count on that number being significantly lowered on normal water use. Most often the hardness in water heaters is higher than on the cold side.

[Gary Slusser]

With 25 gpg hard water and no softener until a year ago, his water heater is probably loaded with hard water scale. I've seen gas and oil water heaters with scale a few inches thick. And electric heaters with scale build up all but up to the bottom element and elements so scaled up you can't get them out of the hole without a chisel.

The hardness in the hot water will vary and can be more or less than his 25 gpg in the raw water but probably is less at the end of a shower and that is why I said test the cold water at the sink. If that is hard, he is exceeding the SFR of the softener or past the time/gallons when the softener should be regenerated.

Fork, why do you have an AN filter when you have 25 gpg of hardness? I ask because I don't think I've ever seen acidic water with that much hardness in it? You said the driller said the TDS was low, which is not a problem. You'd only need that filter if the pH was low; say 6.5 or less.

If you haven't added the hardness the filter is adding to your 25 gpg in the raw water your softener isn't programmed for all the hardness and will allow hard water breakthrough before a regeneration is done. Meaning the softener will run out of capacity before the regeneration and you get hard water through it until after the next regeneration and then without the salt dose set at the max of 15 lbs/cuft of resin, you'll consistently be getting less capacity until you get hard water all the time. Then if you are using less than the 15 lbs/cuft, you must set it to 15lbs/cuft and do 2 manual regenerations with no water use during or between the two. That's the only way to fully regenerate all the resin. Then reset the salt dose for the capacity you need.

You can learn more about setting the salt dose at the link in my signature.

[ForkWheelDrive]

All, thank you for the suggestions. Looks like I need to outline my equipment to help clarify if the white scale/buildup is a problem with the equipment or an unknown in the raw water.

The Softener and Acid Neutralizer were recommended, installed, and programmed by a well water treatment company that I hired. They informed me that I had very hard water, iron, and acidity. After equipment was in service, they checked hardness, iron, and pH and reported all were now at desireable levels. I think this equipment was installed back in August.

The iron oxidation we were seeing in the toilet immediatley stopped with the new treatment system. But within weeks the white buildup and corrosion began occuring in the shower. In December I started researching the issue and got the idea about the Hot Water Heater being scaled up from years of untreated water usage. I flushed it and this seemed to confirm my suspicion.

I installed a brand new Hot Water Heater about a month ago. I did a little experiment to determine if this solved the buildup issue: evaporated a bit of water captured at the end of a shower on a glossy black dinner plate. Result: A plate of white material (with a definative salty taste). So the hw heater wasn't the answer; however, it needed replacing anyway.

With my black plate as evidence, I had the treatment company that installed the equipment come back out at the beginning of January to diagnose. This is when they reported that the water was testing soft and TDS was low (which it wasn't - he needed to recalibrate his meter). They informed me that the water coming out of the acid neutralizer was testing harder than before, so they increased the hardness setting on the softener. They also increased the reserve capacity and may have increased the frequency of regeneration to help remedy the white buildup issue. Their best guess was that it was hardness and the increased settings on the softener would remedy it.

Since then I still have a white buildup if I evaporate off some water. I went through the treatment equipment yesterday and gathered all information I could so here goes:

******
ACID NEUTRALIZER
Valve: Fleck ProFloSXT Downflow (backwashes)
Tank: Clack 1054
Mineral: Not sure what they put in

Programming Parameters (scrolling through master programming mode):
Valve Type: Filter
Control Type: Time Clock
# Tanks: 1
Day Overide: 5 days
Regen Time: 1 AM
Backwash Time: 8 Minutes
RapidRinse Time: 2 Minutes

******
SOFTENER
Valve: Fleck ProFloSXT Upflow
Tank: Clack 9X48

Programming Parameters (scrolling through master programming mode):
Valve Type: Upflow Brine First
Control Type: Meter Delayed
# Tanks: 1
Unit Capacity: 28,000
Feedwater Hardness: 36 gpg
Reserve Selection: Safety Factor
Safety Factor: 25%
Day Overide: 7 days
Regen Time: 2:30 AM
Brine Draw Time: 60 Minutes
Backwash Time: 10 Minutes
RapidRinse Time: 14 Minutes
Brine Fill Time: 8 Minutes
Flow Meter Type: Fleck 3/4" Turbine Meter
******


Raw Water pH may be as low as 6, according to a test strip I used. The well water treatment company informed me that the AN would also help filter oxidized iron.
Looks like the softener will regenerate every 7 days? Gary I am going to study your softener sizing link to try and understand these settings better.
I also checked the peak flow rate since last regen on the softener and it was 2.8 GPM.

Anything not adding up or look out of the ordinary? Thank you in advance!

[Gary Slusser]

Since then I still have a white buildup if I evaporate off some water. I went through the treatment equipment yesterday and gathered all information I could so here goes:

******
ACID NEUTRALIZER
Valve: Fleck ProFloSXT Downflow (backwashes)
Tank: Clack 1054
Mineral: Not sure what they put in

Programming Parameters (scrolling through master programming mode):
Valve Type: Filter
Control Type: Time Clock
# Tanks: 1
Day Overide: 5 days
Regen Time: 1 AM
Backwash Time: 8 Minutes
RapidRinse Time: 2 Minutes

******
SOFTENER
Valve: Fleck ProFloSXT Upflow
Tank: Clack 9X48

Programming Parameters (scrolling through master programming mode):
Valve Type: Upflow Brine First
Control Type: Meter Delayed
# Tanks: 1
Unit Capacity: 28,000
Feedwater Hardness: 36 gpg
Reserve Selection: Safety Factor
Safety Factor: 25%
Day Overide: 7 days
Regen Time: 2:30 AM
Brine Draw Time: 60 Minutes
Backwash Time: 10 Minutes
RapidRinse Time: 14 Minutes
Brine Fill Time: 8 Minutes
Flow Meter Type: Fleck 3/4" Turbine Meter
******

Raw Water pH may be as low as 6, according to a test strip I used. The well water treatment company informed me that the AN would also help filter oxidized iron.
Looks like the softener will regenerate every 7 days? Gary I am going to study your softener sizing link to try and understand these settings better.
I also checked the peak flow rate since last regen on the softener and it was 2.8 GPM.

Anything not adding up or look out of the ordinary? Thank you in advance!

IMO the length of cycle time for backwash and rinse for the filter are not what I would use. I would use 12 minutes backwash and 6 minutes rinse. I am not up on the ProFlo but their days override must be the number of days between backwashes. I would set that to day 4 for 2-3 people as long as you get a pH of 7.0 or higher at all times. Or 3 days if you are running the well pump (assuming a submersible) at less than 30/50 psi. A jet pump probably can't do better than 30/50 psi. I would like 40/60 psi if submersible and a captive air pressure in the pressure tank with no water in it of 39 lbs.

The softener is way too small for 36 gpg compensated hardness. And I would not have sold you an upflow/counter current type. The length of cycle times are factory defaults with the exception of the rinse, which to me is way too long. I'd set the backwash at 6 minutes and rinse at 4 but I don't know know what they should be for upflow. Default settings rarely work well for any size softener if you want any kind of salt or water efficiencies.

Until you get the equipment set up right, there's not much sense in evaporating water but it can't hurt. Problem is if the equipment is setup right and you still have the stuff on the plate then, then what? I have never heard of evaporating water on a plate so you may have the same situation but not the stuff on the fixtures in the shower. At least we can hope huh?

If the driller didn't backwash the filter properly when it was installed, there may be a lot of dust down in the bed and that is getting into and out of the softener and evaporating on the plate.

Change the times and then put the filter into backwash and when the motor stops and you have a fast flow through the drain line, unplug the valve for like 15 minutes (actually time it) and then plug it back in and let it finish backwashing and rinsing on its own. If you can see the water in the drain line, see if it runs clear or not. If not backwash it until it does run clear. Don't use water while doing that.

Then set the softener K of capacity based on 60 gals/person/day and 36 gpg and the salt dose per my sizing page and the minutes above. Use one day's total grains as a reserve.

You have to use the number of minutes of refill instead the lbs of salt. I'd set it for 3333 grains/per lb. You probably have a .5 gpm brine flow but see if it is on the drain line fitting on a sticker/label on the control valve to make sure. Yoiu normally get 1.5 lbs per minute wit ha .5 gpm.

How many minutes and the instructions should be in the manual for the valve. If no manual goto;
www.fleckcontrols.com and find one for the ProFlo, there should be an example and/or formula in the manual.

You will be regenerating quite frequently IMO. I don't see any mention of how many gallons the valve is set for but I would find them and set them and then the override for the number of gallons minus one days gallons as reserve (120 if two people). If you don't set the gallons then the circuit board is doing it.

[ForkWheelDrive]

Until you get the equipment set up right, there's not much sense in evaporating water but it can't hurt. Problem is if the equipment is setup right and you still have the stuff on the plate then, then what? I have never heard of evaporating water on a plate so you may have the same situation but not the stuff on the fixtures in the shower. At least we can hope huh?

Gary, thanks for the great info. My issue with the treatment company has been to make sure that the equipment was operating properly. They assured me it was, proof being that the water was now testing soft. However, they made no mention of efficiency so I will explore that more. Is it possible to make too many sodium ions available in the softener?

The deal with evaporating water off of a plate is that it is the only way I have to test the presence of the white buildup potential of the water. Since I don't know what the material is yet, I don't know what chemical to test for. I'm fairly certain that the material I see on the plate is the same material on the fixtures. Its similar to a TDS test where you actually measure the weight of the solids that are left, only in this case, I also get the visual and physical verification that it matches the buildup on the fixtures.

I have evaporated water collected after running the shower for 15 minutes (1.2 gpm), and after about 1 min from the tap after no water usage for at least 8 hours. I got the same result both times - white buildup on the plate. If the problem was hardness breakthrough, I would think that the results would have varied between these two circumstances. Since it was the same, that tells me that whatever is in the water causing this is present at all times. Also, since the water has always tested soft, I am hoping that the softener does have the capacity to handle the hardness, or at least at my relatively low flow rates (1.2 gpm for the shower).


I will take the info provided by Gary and try to do some calculations in order to adjust the valve settings better. I checked the Brine Draw flow rate - there was a sticker on the valve inlet that read "50 GPM, 1.5 lb/salt per minute". I don't know about the 50 gpm but I will use the 1.5 salt flow.

If I begin adjusting the control valves, I would like to test hardness, iron, and pH after adjustments are made to see what effect there was. I would also evaporate water on the plate to judge the presence of white buildup.
--Can anyone recommend a decent quality home water test kit? Or separate kits for hardness, iron, and acidity?

I believe there is also the possibility that the treatment equipment is working correctly and that there is something in the raw water not being addressed by a softener and neutralizer that is causing the white buildup. I lean towards this option for the reason that the treated water has always tested soft. I think I should pull the trigger on having a lab test done of the raw water and treated water.

I plan on having them test for pH, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium, Sodium, Total Hardness, Hardness as CaCO3, Hardness as MgCO3, Chlorine (free and total), and Silica.
--Anything else worth testing for?? Sulfide? Fluoride? Potassium? Manganese? TDS? Nitrite? Nitrate? Turbidity? Remember I am trying to identify the white buildup.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!

[Gary Slusser]

The salt dose can't make too many ions but can be set with no concern for salt efficiency.

That 50 gpm/1.5lbs/minute is .5 gpm, a half gallon of refill water dissolves 1.5lbs of salt.

I suggest setting the valves and then doing the backwashing of the AN filter I mentioned in my previous post.

For common tests like hardness, pH etc. you can usually get kits at big box stores, or find them online. For the uncommon tests you mentioned, and sulfate, chlorides, TDS etc. I suggested, a water testing lab is the best choice. Unless you want to spend many hundreds of dollars buying specific test kits or a professional kit from Hach Co or other companies which I wouldn't suggest. Turbidity would be OK too. A lab may be able to help with what tests.

But before buying anything, I'd set the equipment up as I suggested and do the AN filter manual backwash until the drain water runs clear. If it didn't run clear within a couple minutes, I'd regenerate the softener too. Then run water at the shower for a few minutes and do the plate evaporation again.

[ditttohead]

the 50 GPM is actually .50 GPM. Water will disolve approximately 3 pounds of salt in a gallon of water. This will vary depending on water temperature and other factors, but 3 pounds is close enough. In huge industrial systems at 60-70 degree water we use 2.7 pounds per gallon, but that is for applications that are using 20,000 pounds of salt a day, the .3 pounds can make a huge difference in costs. Resdientially, the difference would be less than a half a bag a of salt a year, it is not worth doing temperature compensation charting. Lol, all that for 50 is .50.

Test kits: I am sure others on this board will have some excellent recommendations as well.

My personal preferance for

Hardness: Hach 5B, available anywhere for under $35.00 Highly accurate, simple, and has a great shelf life. A little overkill for you, but if the $35 price isnt too bad, then you will not be disappointed.

For iron, etc... www.sensafe.com has a great selection of test strip kits. I use the Exact EZ micro 7+ for my personal use and when I travel it goes with me for training and analysis. It is a bit expensive and is more for the field technicians. They have many test parameters available. it is a very simple electonic Photometric test kit, and highly accurate. The ability to repeat difficult tests accurately speaks volumes to its quality.

Silica, if the water is from a municipal supply, call them and they will provide you with a very thorough detailed water analysis. Otherwise, I specify that it be tested during the initial well drilling testing. If it shows up, it usually does not go away, and since their is no real good way to treat it other than with a double pass RO with some ph adjusting chemical, not really a good idea for a residential application. If it is silica, you dont really need to test for it in the future if the cost for testing is high.

I am curious what other posters on this board recommend for test kits. I am nearly black and white color blind so the old style dial a color wheel kits are not good for me. What other manufacturers have you had good resluts with, or bad results?

As a side note, any TDS in the water will leave a build up when evaporated. Some elements will wipe off easily, others will not. Calcium, magnesium, Silica are rock and will act like it. Sodium, chloride, and many other elements will wipe off with ease. Spot free showers will not happen with softened water, only "less spotty, easier to clean" showers.

A little cheat that will help, but does not solve the problem. Clean the shower until it looks new, spend some time and get it perfect. The wipe everything down with Rain-x. Be sure to check the compatability of rain-x on plastics, a few are potentially damaged by it. Do this monthly and you will probably be good. Use the rain-x on faucets, or anywhere you have this problem. It doesnt fix the real problem, but it will make it much easier to deal with.

[ForkWheelDrive]

Hi all - I am back with my lab results! Hopefully this can shed some light on the white build-up issue I am having (as described above).

Please look over these and let me know your opinion in regards to my treated water causing white build-up. My treatment system consists of a Acid Neutralizer (Filter) and Softener (see post #18 for details). Any RED FLAGS?

RAW:



TREATED:



I think my conundrum is that softened water may leave spots, but they should be easy to clean. The build-up/corrosion I am experiencing (photos in post #10) is not easy to remove and has caused permanent damage in less than a year. Thank you!

[Gary Slusser]

My guess is the TDS and silica are the cause of the problem.

Ion exchange softening adds 2 ions of sodium for each ion being removed, so the TDS increases some. A softener doesn't reduce silica.

A partial cure is to wipe down the shower after every use. it won't remove the stuff that's there but will prevent more of it building up.

And I'd change the settings of the equipment to what I suggested previously.

[ForkWheelDrive]

Gary, thanks for the quick response.

Is 26 mg/l silica considered a high level of silica? Enough to cause the build-up and difficult cleaning I am guessing. I know the TDS is high, but is it the silica component alone that is making it hard to clean?


Some questions about the well itself:

Since the raw water has 26 mg/l silica and 70 mg/l sodium, and the well is 60', would it be worth having the well inspected for damages in the casing, etc?

Do people have new wells drilled to try and get rid of the silica? I guess that would be a last resort, but in my case, the current well is only about 6' from the back of the house and in the path of a future walkway and back door.

[Gary Slusser]

I don't know if 26 mg/l is enough to cause the problem or not but, it really doesn't matter how much it takes, you have the problem and so far there is no other evidence of anything that would cause it other than your silica and high TDS.

Drilling a new well will probably get you a much deeper well and hopefully better water quality but there is no guarantee that you won't get the same or worse water; but you could get better water too. A 60' well is a very shallow well and they are very prone to water quality issues. Usually but not in your case to remove silica, buying equipment is a better choice IMO than drilling a new well.

You don't want to put a sidewalk etc. over a well. You want the well head up out of the ground at least 12"-18" (it's code and a very good idea) and enough space around it to get a well drilling rig or service truck up to it. The size of your property may cause problems in drilling a new well. There are set minimum distances from septic systems and property lines.

If you could get a drilling rig to it, the old well may be drilled deeper and the old water cased off or separated from the new. But I wouldn't want a well that close to my house/basement/sewer lines/floor drain or sump pump hole etc..

[mrmichaeljmoore]

Hey everyone....original poster mrmichaeljmoore here with an update on my water spot saga.

It's been a while since I've posted, so let me give a quick summary of what I've done.

I've had 3 water quality professionals come to my house to help me diagnose my water spot problem.
The first guy (a Kinetico rep) had no idea what the problem was but offered a solution: install a Kinetico system and if the problem goes away, then great! If not and the spotting problem still exists, then he will uninstall his Kinetico system for $200. I passed on that offer.
The second guy was unsure of what the problems is. I mentioned I had some silica in the raw water (lab tested it 15.9 mg/L) and he suggested utilizing polyphosphate/siliphos. Although he said it was food grade and harmless, my wife and I weren't so sure about adding that to our water supply, so we passed on that too.
The third guy pretty much said "it is what it is"....he said they installed a whole house RO system for someone with similar problems....obviously, i declined that expensive proposal....

I recently contacted another water professional. He's a little far from me, but he has been helping me over the phone. He had me do a Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) test with a local lab.
The results were a -1.5 (serious corrosion) on the LSI Index and the lab stated "Water is undersaturated with respect to calcium carbonate. Undersaturated water has a tendency to remove existing calcium carbonate protective coatings in pipelines and equipment."
So, the professional had me use a blending screw on my softener to leak a little hardness into the treated water (approx 1-2gpg of hardness). Well, I'm still getting spots unfortunately...and the water is no longer slippery/slick. I think I am gonna try and back off the blending screw a bit and see of that makes the water a little softer... BUT one thing I noticed is that the spots seem to be able wipe off the chrome a little easier than before I used the blending screw....
That's kinda where I am at right now......I am still gonna tweak the blending screw a bit to see if I can get a mixture that has still has a soft feeling, but that leaves the least amount of spots (that are also easily removed).

As far as the silica, does anyone have any input on that?
Are the levels (15.9 mg/L) high enough to cause issues? Has anyone used any siliphos or polyphosphate treatments? Are they safe? Do they work?

I think I read in an earlier post......someone said spot free water is impossible?? Really? If thats true, thats really disappointing. Are me and ForkWheelDrive trying to achieve something that cant happen.....that is spot free water??


One other thing: I have noticed that I have some etching/pitting on the glass shower door chrome hinge and chrome screws....Not sure what would cause that....and I did have that before I tried the blending screw....


thanks.
mm

[F6Hawk]

Removing silica stains is tough; typically, CLR and similar products will not work ( they are acid-based, as is silica). When I lived in Hawaii, it literally ruined vehicle paint jobs as well as glass. There WAS a removal product that worked well on the glass, though I can't remember the name of it (liquid). I also found that abrasive stainless steel cleanser worked well on glass; of course, it will scratch metal or plastic fixtures, so cannot be used. Something else you can try is a paste of baking soda and water (silica is an acid, so cleaning with a base may ease the process); again, be wary of scratching. Perhaps applying the paste to the faucet, keeping it damp for a bit with a spray bottle of water, followed by rinsing it off, then some gentle scrubbing? LOTS of work, but that's the deal with silica. I finally gave up on my dark windows on my car, it was just too much work.

I have never used it myself, but have read that Amaz works pretty well... http://www.amazon.com/A-Maz-Water-St...s=amaz+cleaner Use at your own risk, however.

[F6Hawk]

I thought I might add, if you really want to remove water spots from glass (not from metal, many metals react by forming hydrogen gas, which is highly flammable)... sodium hydroxide (lye) is a common, STRONG base that is used to make sodium silicate. I have never tried it, but I would suspect a weak solution of it with water would be more effective even than baking soda and water (though BS & water is MUCH safer, and I would try it first!)

http://www.lowes.com/pd_146450-331-H...RL=&facetInfo= is what I am referring to, 100% sodium hydroxide.

Always remember to add the chemical to water, NEVER EVER add water to the lye. It can erupt and splatter you with this powerful chemical. Again, try it on ceramic or glass surfaces, not on metal!!

[mrmichaeljmoore]

Hey everyone....original poster mrmichaeljmoore here with an update on my water spot saga.

It's been a while since I've posted, so let me give a quick summary of what I've done.

I've had 3 water quality professionals come to my house to help me diagnose my water spot problem.
The first guy (a Kinetico rep) had no idea what the problem was but offered a solution: install a Kinetico system and if the problem goes away, then great! If not and the spotting problem still exists, then he will uninstall his Kinetico system for $200. I passed on that offer.
The second guy was unsure of what the problems is. I mentioned I had some silica in the raw water (lab tested it 15.9 mg/L) and he suggested utilizing polyphosphate/siliphos. Although he said it was food grade and harmless, my wife and I weren't so sure about adding that to our water supply, so we passed on that too.
The third guy pretty much said "it is what it is"....he said they installed a whole house RO system for someone with similar problems....obviously, i declined that expensive proposal....

I recently contacted another water professional. He's a little far from me, but he has been helping me over the phone. He had me do a Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) test with a local lab.
The results were a -1.5 (serious corrosion) on the LSI Index and the lab stated "Water is undersaturated with respect to calcium carbonate. Undersaturated water has a tendency to remove existing calcium carbonate protective coatings in pipelines and equipment."
So, the professional had me use a blending screw on my softener to leak a little hardness into the treated water (approx 1-2gpg of hardness). Well, I'm still getting spots unfortunately...and the water is no longer slippery/slick. I think I am gonna try and back off the blending screw a bit and see of that makes the water a little softer... BUT one thing I noticed is that the spots seem to be able wipe off the chrome a little easier than before I used the blending screw....
That's kinda where I am at right now......I am still gonna tweak the blending screw a bit to see if I can get a mixture that has still has a soft feeling, but that leaves the least amount of spots (that are also easily removed).

As far as the silica, does anyone have any input on that?
Are the levels (15.9 mg/L) high enough to cause issues? Has anyone used any siliphos or polyphosphate treatments? Are they safe? Do they work?

I think I read in an earlier post......someone said spot free water is impossible?? Really? If thats true, thats really disappointing. Are me and ForkWheelDrive trying to achieve something that cant happen.....that is spot free water??


One other thing: I have noticed that I have some etching/pitting on the glass shower door chrome hinge and chrome screws....Not sure what would cause that....and I did have that before I tried the blending screw....


thanks.
mm

Well.....still no luck playing with the blending screw.....so I'm selfishly bumping my thread to the top in frustration with my water situation.
I'm still getting spots on fixtures that can only be removed with chrome cleaner.

Any help from the water experts here would be appreciated...I'm desperate for a solution for this spotting.

The quoted text above lays out the issues.

Thank you in advance.
mm