bathtub to shower conversion

[slapappy]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum, and had a question about shower drains. My customer has chosen to replace his tub, and install a fiberglass shower receptor. The tub had a 1 1/2" trap and trap arm, which ties into the 2" drain line. I know that a shower is supposed to have a 2" drain, but it's simply not an option. Even if I could get access, which would involve wrecking the ceiling of the recently remodeled powder room below, there isn't any way to tap into the drain line. The bathroom is on the second floor, with another bathroom behind it, and a laundry room is on the side wall. There are drain and vent pipe connections for 2 tubs, 2 lavatories, and the laundry standpipe. The tees off of the drain pipe are spaced so close together, that even is I could cut out the 2 x 2 x 1 1/2 tee, there wouldn't be enough pipe next to the adjacent tees to solder on a new one. I know they are not going to want me to trash the powder room below, and the wet wall in the newly remodeled kitchen to cut out everything and start over. I have informed them of the possible risks involved with using 1 1/2" drain pipe for a shower, and that it was against code. They are willing to accept the risk, and so am I. I live in a 110 year old house, with 1 1/2" cast iron drain in my shower, and never had any problem. My question is, what to do about the shower drain. Every drain I've seen with a 4 1/4" flange is designed to be connected to 2" PVC, and I need to connect to 1 1/2" copper. I've been a remodeling contractor for 25 years, so I'm not some naive homeowner who doesn't know what they're doing. I've simply never run into this situation before. Please, no condescending remarks, or lectures on needing to trash their house in order to "do it right". I'm all for doing it right when at all possible, and usually go beyond code to know that what I've built will still be there in 100 years, but I know that my customer isn't going to spend 30 grand to remodel a 5 x 7 bathroom!! Any ideas regarding the shower drain?

[jadnashua]

First, if this is being inspected (and legally, it should be), see if the inspector will give you a variance. If not, walk away, as your license is up for grabs...

[johnjh2o1]

If your looking for someone to say to use the 1-1/2" drain you won't find him here. You also say you have a 1-1/2" cast iron drain in your shower. There is no such thing as 1- 1/2" cast iron.

John

[slapappy]

I meant 1 1/2" steel drain pipe, and I was talking about my house, not my clients'. What exactly is your point? To feel superior? To belittle me? Any constructive advice?

[geniescience]

The Canadian code never got around to increasing from 1.5" to 2", and showers drain just as well in Canada as in your house. Hint hint. I think the increase to 2" size was good for builders; it allowed them to build bigger houses without worrying about venting as much.

[johnfrwhipple]

Jadnashua brings up an excellent point and you know the risks yourself as you raise the point "You know it's against code".

I have researched drains, channel drains, line drains, slot drains, trench drains to the point that the word "Drain" is draining to my family. I know of only one way to hook up your shower...

My go to cast iron drain. "The Baby Blue" is an out dated still in stock UPC CSA approved cast iron drain with a thread connection. From there you thread on a 2" tail piece and then soldier on a 2" x 1 1/2" reducer.

Then your good to go. It would be wise to run this by your inspector as with your experience in the field you might eat a big one on day.

Inspectors are looking for serious violations and many people fear even talking to them. You would be surprised what you can achieve with simple dialogue with your local city hall. They are looking out for safety and am sure would rather sign off on an inspected project than let some hack do it wrong.

Many 2" drains that have approval ratings are choked down to 1 1/2" in the outlet hole anyway.

Call around your plumbing wholesalers and look for ones carrying Watts drains. Here in North Vancouver we call them "Baby Blues" because years and years back they where "Baby Blue" in colour.

This drain that I'm suggesting is not designed for a fiberglass pan and is designed for a old school shower with a CPE membrane and mud job.

There are MJ fittings that can go from 1 1/2" copper to 2" ABS or PVC. Depending on your local code you may have fire code issues that restrict the type of fittings you use. We have skirted these in the past with "Hilti Bricks" - fire surpression material from Hilti.

Post a few pictures and maybe we can think of a game plan to run by your inspector...
Good Luck. Let me know if I can help you locate one.

JW

[slapappy]

Thanks for the reply, John. Any idea where I might find a drain designed for a fiberglass shower receptor? The flange would need to be 4 1/4". Also, just curious, why cast iron? Wouldn't it be better to use a brass trap when tying into copper?

[geniescience]

...drain designed for a fiberglass shower receptor ....4 1/4"..

Try Oatey.

... cast iron? ... brass ...

There are two concepts mixed together here.

One is whether to use brass or another material. That is UNimportant for now. Later, you can figure out which material to use and why.

As JohnFR pointed out
"Many 2" drains ... 1 1/2" in the outlet hole anyway."
Do you know if the Schluter drain have a 2" hole in it or a 1.5" hole? Go look.
Getting comfortable with 1.5" is easy.
Talking to authorities about it might not be the happiest moment.

A 1.5" drain carries water a certain distance.
A pipe smaller or larger carries water a different distance.
Hint hint.
It's all a matter of the length of the pipe. Developed length.

Any pipe self-vents well up to a certain distances, depending on the length and its slope. Don't overslope it; that will reduce its carrying capacity. A pipe carries air backwards while it carries draining water forwards, so it needs a gentle slope. Stay at 1/4" per foot if you want to be sure you know (and everyone else knows too) its carrying capacity.

In your next post, you owe me a word thanking me.

[jadnashua]

The Kerdi drain has a standard 2" pvc or abs socket on the bottom, and that is the smallest opening in the thing. http://www.schluter.com/media/ShowerHandbook.pdf They do also have conversions from a standard clamping drain and commercial metal (ss) versions, if required, for your application. The (stated) reason the US went to a 2" drain for showers (where 1-1/2" is still okay for a tub) is that if the drain was momentarily blocked (say standing on it or dropping a washcloth, etc.) is that the 2" drain would allow the accumulated water to drain fast enough to not overflow the (usually) short curb once you realized it. A tub has an overflow drain, a shower does not - if it overflows, it goes out on the floor. Few like standing in water while taking a shower, and the larger drain helps to prevent that. All things being equal, a 1-1/2" drain should work, but the codes are written for the 'what-if' situations.

[johnfrwhipple]

I have not installed a fiberglass shower pan in nearly 8 years. I can not recommend any drains in that size for you.

Your plumbing wholesalers are the first place to start. BY now you should have checked to see if plastic drains are allowed. Even in certain neighborhoods you can not use a plastic drain (ABS or PVC).

If your kit cam with a standard compression drain like is common for this shower pans you could always bush out or down as need be. The plumbing wholesalers all carry a wide assortment of of MJ fittings which connect every possible pipe to every possible pipe. I pay between $4.00 and $25.00 depending on the size and the supplier. MOst of the ones 2" and under are well below $12.00.

Listen to this advise above as well. It's solid. What is your pipe run? Have you snaked it clean? Is it a 1 1/2" line or is it now years later a 1" line... (because of build up and junk)?

Removing curbs and having low barriers is risky business as mentioned. A second emergency drain is a wise idea. But then we would be messing with your ceiling.

If you up loaded a load of pictures I bet we could figure out even more options for you. If seen men here in these pages look at a picture and let people know the exact part, part number and where to get it. Thanks expeirence. That will save you time and money...

JW

Thanks for the reply, John. Any idea where I might find a drain designed for a fiberglass shower receptor? The flange would need to be 4 1/4". Also, just curious, why cast iron? Wouldn't it be better to use a brass trap when tying into copper?

[johnfrwhipple]

Any progress reports?

Would love to see how you made out on your bathtub to shower conversion.

We are converting an old 15 year bathtub in a False Creek Condo here in Vancouver to a full steam shower. This shower will have a fold down bench, rain-head and hand held. The client has selected a river rock floor and we will be installing a regular 4" stainless round or square drain grill or perhaps a 5" tile top point drain instead.

Hope you pop back in and show off the new shower...

JW