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Thread: Modcon with IHW Tweaking

  1. #61
    DIY Member tk03's Avatar
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    It would help if we could see pictures of the installation. Is that possible?

  2. #62

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    Here is what the second plumber that I fired left:
    http://share.shutterfly.com/action/w...AbMW7Nk0cs2b3o

    Here is as it stands today:
    http://share.shutterfly.com/action/w...AbMW7Nk0cs2b7Y

  3. #63
    DIY Member tk03's Avatar
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    A few issues I see right away is the IWH tank is not properly piped. It should be 1" (if it is not now) and treated as another zone, not off the boiler piping. The Alpine 150 requires a flow of 11 gpm and the indirect requires 6 gpm. Is that pump for the Alliance a Taco 007? If so not big enough. It is hard to see the boiler secondary piping where it ties into the primary pipe. I am also concerned the ells on each side of the closely spaced tees are too close. You need a minimum of 8 pipe diameters before the tees and a minimum of 4 pipe diameters after. This all affects flow. The distance between the tees not to exceed 4 times the diameter of the primary pipe (not boiler secondary pipe).There should never be nothing between the tees.
    Last edited by tk03; 06-10-2011 at 06:18 PM.

  4. #64

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    I didn't pipe any of the things you mentioned as you can see by comparing the pics. I just redid what did not technically worked or looked terrible.

    This is directly out of the Burnham installation manual,



    Showing the tank piped as mine is. The connections on the tank are only 3/4" if that makes a difference. The length of the pipe between the closely spaced Ts is 4 inches so that is correct.

    The rest of it is not something that would easily be changed. It would require basically repiping the entire thing which I have no interest in doing. And paying another plumber (which I don't have) at least $1000 to redo isn't in the budget.

  5. #65
    DIY Member tk03's Avatar
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    As I stated it was hard to see the area of the piping where the boiler tied in.
    You are right the drawing is right out of the Burnham manual. But as you read the manual somewhere around page 39 dependent on date of the manual, it shows a table 12B. 12B states that an Alpine 150 should use drawing 32C or 32D for piping. The not recommended means not recommended piped to the boiler piping.
    As far as the piping to the indirect it should be piped in 1" to get the proper flow through the indirect for proper heat transfer from the boiler and also into the tank. Increase the piping to 1" right at the tank. The pump should probably be a Taco 0010 also.
    This would help resolve short cycling during production of hot water.

  6. #66
    Master Hot Water Mpls,MN BadgerBoilerMN's Avatar
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    Performance may be enhanced by an upgrade to 1" but that is not a guarantee. Given the short distance and the maximum delta T of 35, the manual will allow the use of a UPS1558 or a 007 Taco (which you appear to have). Flow is determined by the size AND developed length.

    It appears also that you hired a good mechanic that didn't quite understand why but only how.

    The first drawing appears to be correct. It also appears that you have re-piped from the accepted primary/secondary to the direct pumps method, which is accepted by Burnham but not recommended because of the requirement for careful flow considerations...read experienced professionals only.

    If I had to guess, the pump on the primary pipe is bigger than the pump on the indirect. If that is the case, I would re-pipe to the original correct pipe schematic and switch the pumps (making sure the axis of the pump I level).

    The copper pan is a nice touch but will not stand up to acidic condensate.

    Careful of the DIY crowd, another "professional" is always your best bet.

  7. #67
    DIY Member tk03's Avatar
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    Your looking at a minimum of 14 ft head. How is a Taco 007 a good choice for this application? I believe it is primary/secondary but again it is hard to see from the picture.

  8. #68
    Master Hot Water Mpls,MN BadgerBoilerMN's Avatar
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    "How is a Taco 007 a good choice for this application?"

    I write, read and understand, condensing boiler installation manuals for a living. I believe this boiler has been repiped without the bypass.

    Over the past 25 years I have found qualified installers in 23 States and 7 Provinces, DIY on a ModCon is the road to misery.

  9. #69

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    I'm just going to post up the above references items from the manual for future reference.

    P.39 content:



    Table 12B:



    Quote Originally Posted by tk03
    As far as the piping to the indirect it should be piped in 1" to get the proper flow through the indirect for proper heat transfer from the boiler and also into the tank. Increase the piping to 1" right at the tank.
    The feed side for the tank is 3/4" with a Taco 007. The return side is 1" (I'll assume because that was what was available at my house when the plumber did the install). Changing the feed side to 1" is not more than 30 mins worth of work and an easy fix. But since you're correct (as confirmed in 12B) that the tank should be piped as a zone, should I really bother buying a Taco 010 to replace the brand new 007 that I already have? Or is it feasible to just replace the feed like with 1" and leave the pump and just move the tank over to the extra spot on the manifold when I build the addition?

    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerBoilerMN
    The first drawing appears to be correct. It also appears that you have re-piped from the accepted primary/secondary to the direct pumps method, which is accepted by Burnham but not recommended because of the requirement for careful flow considerations..
    The system is still P/S. All I did was move the feed side which was hanging 3' from the wall supported by almost nothing (including the pumps whose flange valves couldn't be closed because they hit the ceiling joists) over to the wall where it could be supported. I didn't touch the primary loop other than to fix the primary loop circ flange which was leaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerBoilerMN
    If I had to guess, the pump on the primary pipe is bigger than the pump on the indirect. If that is the case, I would re-pipe to the original correct pipe schematic and switch the pumps (making sure the axis of the pump I level).
    The primary pump is larger (I'll look up the model number tonight).

    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerBoilerMN
    The copper pan is a nice touch but will not stand up to acidic condensate.
    Isn't that what the neutralizer is for? Or does that not neutralize as well as I've read? Most people I've talked to say not much condensate comes out anyway. If I see it starting to corrode I can fabricate the same item out of PVC. That was a fun project.


    Are we in in agreement that the system will function without breaking for a while until I start the addition at which time I can move the tank to the manifold and just cap off the connections on the primary loop when I have the new bathroom plumbed and the upstairs heating zone expanded?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by mage182; 06-13-2011 at 07:09 AM.

  10. #70
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    The amount of condensate depends entirely on the size of the boiler AND how much it is in condensing mode. If running condensing mode primarily, it can produce a lot of condensate! If, on the other hand, it is running full blast and not condensing, most of the moisture will be exhausted as a vapor. Some of this depends on the length of the vent pipes and where they run. SO, short answer, if you don't have a lot of condensate, your system is probably oversized...
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  11. #71
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    It can still be grossly oversized, short cycling like crazy, and still return a lot of condensate if operating in the condensing region. It's the temperature of the return water, not the output rate (or output temp) of the burner that determines the amount of condensate. The more radiation you have, the lower the temp that still delivers the heat, and THAT will also increase the condensate volume (which is a good thing, efficiency-wise.)

  12. #72
    Master Hot Water Mpls,MN BadgerBoilerMN's Avatar
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    switch the pumps and pray,

    for others following this thread, you can find a qualified professional

    http://www.badgerboilerservice.com/contractor.html

  13. #73
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    Has prayer proven successful in debugging hydronic systems? Any particular mantras, bhodisattvas, or saints work better than others? ;-)

    I like the "find a competent pro" approach much better. But I also like to measure stuff before/after as a sanity check, independent of the designer. To be sure "design by web-forum" only works in the simplest of systems, and when loads can be well-estimated by empirical data rather than heat loss calculation apriori.

  14. #74
    DIY Member tk03's Avatar
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    I am not sure I understand the moving the pumps or maybe I misunderstand what you are saying. The manual calls for a 0014 or a 26-99 on the boiler secondary pipe pumping into the boiler. The 007 could be used on the tank if the piping was change to a zone useing diagram 32C or 32D.

    Dana, isn't it both the supply and return water temp that determines the amount of condensation. You can have part of the boiler at a condensing temp and part of the boiler hotter than condensing temp. That would mean that only part of the boiler is condensing. This might happen when the return temp is getting closer to the high side of dew point where it is not going to condense.

  15. #75

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    The pump on the primary loop is in fact a Taco 0014. My two goals now are to switch the piping for the tank to use the extra zone I set up on the manifold before I move in, and to find a competent service professional using BadgerBoilerMN's recommendations to come and do the initial software configuration. Hopefully that same person would be available should I ever need service for the unit.

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