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Thread: installing non-automatic transfer switch

  1. #16
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    better delete that last line, it might be dangerous.

    But really, its a bit sad that non-conforming information is automatically removed.

    My piece of illegal electrical work in a forest fire saved an irreplaceble home, while I watchd 30+ others burn.

    At least in some cases, they had generators, but no idea how to power them up quick and easy in an EMERGENCY.

    Backfeeding was not an issue as there were no standing poles for miles around.

    Exploding propane tanks and transformers all around make for quick solutions.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 01-12-2011 at 10:07 AM.

  2. #17
    Electrical Contractor Jim Port's Avatar
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    I have a portable generator in my detached garage. I make a connection there and use it to power essential things in my house......
    I certainly hope that the garage is well ventilated so that carbon monoxide does not build up and enter the house. Waking up dead from CO poisoning doesn't sound like fun.

  3. #18
    DIY Junior Member zunden's Avatar
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    Default more information on main panels and transfer switch

    jwelectric -

    I do have the series of transfer switch shown. My model is the 301660. It has interlocked 60 and 30 amp breakers provided by Gen-Tran and space for 8 full-size, single-pole breakers or 4 double-pole. On page 3, Gen-Tran specifies twice this capacity for this model, I believe, by assuming the use of half-size breakers. A home photo and scanned wiring diagram from Gen-Tran were too large to attach to this reply. The best online picture I found is at: http://patioenclosurekit.iim.bz/2010...tt-generators/ My 301660 is laid out just like the Model 501210 shown in the link you sent me.

    My 400 amp service uses twin Cutler-Hammer Model CH30JJM200N split neutral main breaker panels. Again, my home photos are too large for attaching here, and I could not find an online picture.

    Thanks once again.

  4. #19
    DIY Junior Member zunden's Avatar
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    Default will do

    drick -

    I will move the two left panel circuits to the right panel with the feeder breaker, as you advise. Thank you for catching this safety issue. I would hope that my county's permit office would have done so, but who knows? Thanks also for checking my generator capacity. I can easily disable the blower motor from my VisionPro thermostat during water use. Finally, thanks for the cabling recommendations. I might spend extra for 10-3 UP and whatever size RNC it calls for.

  5. #20
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    The only thing you need to do is to move the circuits that you want to have on the generator to the small transfer panel. Move all conductors ie: black, white, and bare equipment grounding conductor.

    Do not and I repeat Do Not try to use the generator to supply one of the 200 amp panels.

    Use the neutral and two hots from the transfer 60 amp overcurrent device to supply the utility power to those circuits you move to the transfer panel. During a power failure the 60 is turned off and the 30 is turned on to supply those circuits that you moved.

  6. #21
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    My piece of illegal electrical work in a forest fire saved an irreplaceble home, while I watchd 30+ others burn.
    The original poster is not in a forest fire so there is no need for him to endanger someone else in the name of stupidity.

  7. #22
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    So why not write a sticky telling what a homeowner can do with a generator and a piece of wire when their is an emergency? Is this only a NEC law forum, or can we have some practical, life saving advice with all the neccesary proviso's?

    I suspect you would do the same thing if the 100 year fire was coming up your canyon. No stupidity involved.

    We can't all afford a 400 amp service in our houses, and the switches to go with a huge genset.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 01-12-2011 at 02:10 PM.

  8. #23
    Electrical Contractor Jim Port's Avatar
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    I don't think that anyone would disagree that things can be or are done and they can work. That does not in anyway mean that it is code compliant nor safe. It is irresponsible for a subject matter expert like a licensed electrician or inspector to give advice that would be non-compliant or to not refute less than accurate information. To think otherwise is ridiculous and might open them up to a potential lawsuit should something happen that was less than compliant.

    Whether I agree with all the rules or not, I have a license at risk should I violate those rules. To continue to espouse that someone can ignore the rules designed for life safety is reprehensible.

  9. #24
    DIY Senior Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    I certainly hope that the garage is well ventilated so that carbon monoxide does not build up and enter the house. Waking up dead from CO poisoning doesn't sound like fun.

    I guess you missed the part about it being a detached garage.....50 feet from the house

    and also that it is a portable generator....and my garage has a big door. running the generator with the door open and or the generator wheeld outside would be no more dangerous than running my pickup.....

    OH and I also have a methanol burning dragster that I occasionally run in the garage......I have as of yet not woken up dead....but I have to admit I've been close.....
    Last edited by Rich B; 01-12-2011 at 04:11 PM.

  10. #25
    Electrical Contractor Jim Port's Avatar
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    I did miss the detached part, although I know one family that tried to hide the generator in their garage so the neighbors did not know they had power while everyone else was out of power. They were close to waking up dead.

  11. #26
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    So why not write a sticky telling what a homeowner can do with a generator and a piece of wire when their is an emergency? Is this only a NEC law forum, or can we have some practical, life saving advice with all the neccesary proviso's?
    All the necessary provisos are life safety issues. What you posted is not only illegal but very dangerous even with a looming fire storm of the century.

    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    I suspect you would do the same thing if the 100 year fire was coming up your canyon. No stupidity involved.
    No common sense tells me that if a fire of the century is booming down on me to get the hell out of there and not spend no time trying to fuel the tank of a generator.

    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    We can't all afford a 400 amp service in our houses, and the switches to go with a huge genset.
    But the cost of a couple of drop cords are a lot cheaper than the rig that you posted and a lot faster to install and safer.

    I think someone posted the use of all these cords and having to go outside. If one has one ounce of a brain then they know that they have to go outside to start and refuel the generator. I hope that everyone has enough sense to not run a generator in a detached garage. The exhaust system for a generator and an automobile is different. The generator can and will let sparks pass the muffler where you car or truck won’t. So attached, detached, and basements are no place for a generator.

  12. #27
    DIY Senior Member Rich B's Avatar
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    JW your posts all point to one thing......DANGER...WARNING....DON'T DO IT....RUN AWAY......YOU'LL DIE....YOU'LL START A FIRE......YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER.....BE CAREFULL.......YOU NEED TO FOLLOW THE RULES.....THE NANNY STATE WILL PROTECT YOU......THE CODE ENFORCERS ARE WATCHING YOUR EVERY MOVE............LOL

    I'll leave now so you can continue with your warnings and advice and code book recitings....
    Last edited by Rich B; 01-13-2011 at 05:13 AM.

  13. #28
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    JW your posts all point to one thing......DANGER...WARNING....DON'T DO IT....RUN AWAY......YOU'LL DIE....YOU'LL START A FIRE......YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER.....BE CAREFULL.......YOU NEED TO FOLLOW THE RULES.....THE NANNY STATE WILL PROTECT YOU......THE CODE ENFORCERS ARE WATCHING YOUR EVERY MOVE............LOL

    I'll leave now so you can continue with your warnings and advice and code book recitings....
    Well I certainly hope that you remain safe in your endeavors. I also hope that you keep safety at the top of your list.

    Remember only you are the one to keep you safe and if your safety does not matter then please keep the safety of others at the top.

    RULES

    I once heard someone say that rules were made to be broken. I ask if rules are made to be broken then why waste time in making rules? The simple answer is, if you don’t care and respect yourself this in no way give you the right to disrespect and not care for me. Rules are put into place to insure that what you do does not endanger me. Now obey the rules before you hurt me or someone close to me.

  14. #29
    DIY Junior Member zunden's Avatar
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    Jwelectric -

    I have carefully read your final advisory and will use it. Thanks again for your generous advice.

  15. #30
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    All the necessary provisos are life safety issues. What you posted is not only illegal but very dangerous even with a looming fire storm of the century.

    Originally Posted by ballvalve
    I suspect you would do the same thing if the 100 year fire was coming up your canyon. No stupidity involved.No common sense tells me that if a fire of the century is booming down on me to get the hell out of there and not spend no time trying to fuel the tank of a generator.
    You would let your house burn down Without giving it a fight? Does not sound like a Rock of the Marne type of attitude.

    Every person that evacuated lost all their property. The few that had a can do attitude all survived nicely and saved their houses.

    Most wildfires give warning, and the bright ones already had the genset fueled and oiled and exercised during the summer. And a jumper designed to [tecnique edited out beforehand] get power to any circuit needed one at a time.

    Australia has studied these fires carefully and have decided on a system of encouraging people to stay with their houses in a wildfire, if they are able bodied and have some form of safe spot to retire to. Most houses have the needed clearance by law, so a one handed cripple with a hose only need wet the roof if flammable and put out ember started spot fires, and move junk away from the house to make the difference between success and catastrophe. The people that die in wildfires are typically the ones that leave at the LAST moment, and get stuck in a car. So either stay put or run EARLY.

    I built in a 1" 100' radius rainbird on my roof, and a direct assault on the stucco house with a flamethrower would have had no effect. But it needed a genset and a wire.

    Maybe you saw me and a friend on FOX national news. Shots of the sprinkler, generator half ass wired up, and a smoldering mass of destroyed homes and lives all around us. And like you, FOX made a big statement at the end of this magic story "DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF!"

    If you don't delete this I'll edit in a photo later.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 01-13-2011 at 10:27 AM.

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