Water Heater Help

Studies have shown that tankless heaters cost more in the long run than conventional heaters. Besides the issues that jdnashua cites, you will have to have a much larger gas supply line installed, pay for frequent service calls, and a much more expensive heater. Of course there are those who consider tankless to be the real deal and the future of water heating, they even have a separate section on this forum, but many of us are not convinced convinced that tankless technology and cost are a sensible way to go at least for most of us. Be thankful you have gas as a gas heater heats water much faster than a similarly sized electric heater and, in most places at least, heating with gas is cheaper than electricity.

I've no doubt that the studies you are referring to are correct, on a bell curve, with the conclusion centering on an average household. Those of you from big families know, nothing average applies to you. I wonder if the tankless would still be at a disadvantage for large consumptions of hot water during a short interval. Perhaps so. If an average household is 2.6 people, and we are considering a household of 8 people, we've really changed the game.

The house we have now has hot water heat with a tankless coil mounted in the boiler. The hot water is infinite. Efficiency is probably horrible, especially in the summer when the boiler wouldn't otherwise fire but, I wouldn't trade it. None of the hot water piping is insulated though so, the wait for hot water at an upstairs tap can be long, even know there is a storage tank. It occurs to me that having a small, on-demand, tankless for the bathroom sinks might save a lot of energy but, effiency and saving energy, as factors alone, are only of interest to the environmentalist. If saving money is the goal, then the savings due to increased efficiency must be weighed with installed cost and expected service life, as well as how long one expects to remain in that home. If you want to get fancy, you could throw in payback period and opportunity cost as well.

The option for the water heater timer is interesting. I know the utilities around here will offer a discount if you install one. I may not have been clear in my previous post about the programmable thermostat. I was referring to warmer air during the shower time. It works. People take cooler, shorter showers when it is 2-3 degrees warmer. No studies to reference, only anecdotal evidence.

Can someone help me understand the difference between "first hour delivery" and recovery rate? That hi-po BW: http://www.bradfordwhite.com/products2.asp?id=1&product_id=168 has a first hour delivery of 200gph, but recovery rate is only 86gph....so why would I want to spend $1,200+ on the BW w/6 year warranty vs. this wh @ sears: http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_04233176000P?prdNo=3 that's only $760 and has a recovery rate of 81gph +12yr warranty? Would there be a real-world significant difference in how many people could shower in a close amount of time between the two wh's?

Thanks for your continued help and input!

The "first hour rate" is the combination of the tank's storage, and the recovery rate, since that is the amount of water you have available in the first hour. After that you have to depend on the recovery rate, until usage stops and the tank can refill with hot water. The "high performance heater" operates at 160 degrees, and has double the gas input of the standard unit. Therefore it has double the recovery, and since you CANNOT use the hot water directly, every gallon of "tank" water is mixed with a quantity of cold water which prolongs its capacity.

The first hour is how much you can literally use in the first hour. To compare apples to apples, you need the first hour delivery rate of the Sears unit. By starting with hotter water and having a much bigger burner, you can keep dumping water before it cools off. The other unit just can't keep up because it can't make as much hot water during use.

Okay, I now understand the specs, thank you!

Getting back to the installation, what is a fair range for cost of installation: removing the old wh (which works fine), replacing it with the new, if I provide the unit?



Thanks again.

Recovery rate on a gas water heater...round numbers use 1 gallon per hour per 1000 BTU. So an 80,000 BTU unit would roughly have 80 gallons per hour + the storage...70% of the gallon capacity. By increasing temp and using a tempering valve, you can increase that 70% number.

Note that recovery and first hour, emphasis on the word HOUR. If you run a garden tub filler at 10 gallons per minute, you use up the available hot water long before the recovery has replenished it.

New to forum, so I hope this is in the correct area. Had a friend replace my old Bradford White yesterday with a new BW. The old 50 gal. BW had a recirculating line system for the hot water. A few years ago the recirculating motor crapped out, so I unplugged it...yet the "system" still worked real good by itself: hot water came quickly to the far end of the run almost instantaneously. Perhaps gravity was doing the work, but I'm not sure.

After the new install, now things are real slow again at the far end of the hot water run. Nothing was really changed during the install...he simply took out the old tank and put a new one in place.

Any ideas on why things are different now?...and how I can get things back to the way it used to be and get hot water quickly at the far end?

Also, it looks like the new install is not standing perfectly level. Not sure I looked to see if the old one, which was professionally installed, was level, but maybe it was. Would an unlevel tank have anything to do with this? Thank you.

If the recirc system was disconnected, it COULD NOT have done anything to give "instant hot water", and just replacing the water heater could not do anything to change it either. Neither does being "off level" which is a function of the floor being level or not.

Thank you HJ. I should not have used the words " almost instantaneously". However, under the old system, the hot water arrived at the farthest point from the source "within seconds" even without a pump being on. I'm not sure why it worked.... maybe it was like siphoning gas from a gas tank: once suction is applied it kind of flows on its own. Maybe when the motor crapped out simply unplugging the motor had no effect on the flow that was already established. Anyway..... now it is close to a minute before the hot water reaches the far end.

I'm not sure why...all I know is that there is a difference now. Any more thoughts. Appreciate it....BW

A recirculation system can work by gravity. The piping has to be "just so" to make it work. I have seen other recirc systems that worked even if the pump was turned off. Hard to tell without seeing it what changed, that yours used to work and now doesn't. Did you reconnect the piping involving the pump exactly the way it was???

Thank you Jimbo. Yes the install was easy and nothing was changed except for one small detail. The old BW sat about 1.5 inches above the ground...in fact a golf ball was lost under there for a spell. The new BW sits flush on the ground.

There were no additional pipe pieces added to the top of the tank, but I did notice that there appears to be a small extension piece added near the end of the recirculating run coming to the tank. In other words, the factory outlet and gate valve near the bottom of the tank exits the tank, and there is about a 1.5 inch connecter pipe between the bottom gate valve and the other gate valve for the recyle line. I suppose that extra piece added matches the difference between the new BW sitting flush on the floor, and the old which was elevated about 1.5 inches.

Thanks guys for the input. Unless you have anything else that may help, I may call in a professional and see what's up....and if I do I will let you know what they say. Damn...I hate plumbing.

Nice to know however this forum exists for questions. Thanks much BW