Possible shower pan leak in sunken tub/shower

[Estelle]

Our tiled master shower has orange discoloration (rust from hard water stain?) on the grout join between the back wall of our Roman sunken shower/tub (we swapped out the drain when we moved in and use it exclusively as a shower now), and the floor of the shower. We have tried drying out the tub, but that area of grout never dries. It is always oozing water. We have had three plumber visits over the past two years where they had to do some minor fixes to the hot and cold faucet handles on that wall, and in pulling the handles off were able to look into the wall. Everything appeared dry there. They suggested that the problem is most likely a leak in the shower pan. We plan to remodel this bathroom in a year or two, but this discoloration has been going on for probably a few years, and now I'm noticing traces of mold on the grout in various spots. Are we risking huge problems if we wait on this remodel? Since it's a sunken tub, do we still risk rotting, mold and termite damage below it and in the walls? I can post pictures if you want.

[jadnashua]

Long-term moisture exposure can rot out all sorts of things, so yes, it could be a problem if you wait. Then again, maybe not, too. If you can view the underside somehow (either from the basement, crawl space, or taking out some ceiling), you'd have a much better idea. A good place for help on tiling and shower building is www.johnbridge.com.

[johnfrwhipple]

Post your pictures here. There are very few plumbers on John Bridge's site and you will get more help with your mechanics here.

You will need pictures uploaded to get any kind of solid advice.

There are many ways to build a Roman Tub and many methods. Often these shower failures are the result of plugged or filled weep holes. If the shower never dries out and stays wet on the floor all the time most likely there is no pre-slope in the shower.

Do you know if the shower was built with "Hot Mop"? Was it built with a rubber liner? Built with a liquid membrane? Was it an "Old School" mud job?

Please post some pictures. Close ups of the drain often helps figure things out quickly.

You will find much helpful advice here and also on Contractor Talk, Garden Web, That Home Site, DIY Network and on and on. John Bridge's site is useful for information on building a "Kerdi" shower. If your not a skill setter you will have more luck and a better chance of success working with a products like Hydro Ban or Red Guard.

There is a ton to learn. But start at the beginning - start with a site inspection. I can help you with that if you like. Post some pictures and lets go from there....

JW

[jadnashua]

John Bridge's site is useful for information on building a "Kerdi" shower. If your not a skill setter you will have more luck and a better chance of success working with a products like Hydro Ban or Red Guard.

John's site has helped thousands of people build a traditional shower, and their 'Liberry' has extensive info, diagrams, and references to the TCNA handbook's many methods. There are numerous ways to build a good performing shower, and many more ways to mess it up. Personally, I prefer a surface membrane, the particular one you choose is your choice, as to price, local availability, and your skill level. Many of the pros there started with traditional shower construction, and have 'seen the light' to the benefits of surface membranes, be it from Schluter, or others. the more the shower is used, and the higher the local humidity levels, the bigger the benefit of a surface membrane. there's something to be said for a waterproof enclosure verses a water resistant one.

[Estelle]

I'm afraid there is no "underside" to view. This house was built on a cement slab -- no basement, no crawl space. On the other side of the wall containing the hot and cold knobs and the shower head is the wall to a separate small enclosure space containing the toilet. So we could break through that wall close to the floor where the commode is and look at what's going on inside the shared wall, I guess. But that floor isn't sunken. The back wall of the large sunken shower is an exterior wall containing a window. I can go outside and see what it looks like out there -- whether or not the soil is wet next to the foundation -- but again that's at ground level, not at the 'sunken' level.

[Estelle]

Thanks for your reply. The shower does seem to dry out. And the floor appears to have a clear slope to the drain. It's just an area around the drain, and mostly at the grout join line behind the drain that connects the tile wall of the shower with the tile floor that seems to be wet all the time. I have no idea how this shower was built as we are not the original owners of the house, and it was built about 20 years ago. HOW DO I ATTACH IMAGES HERE? DO I NEED TO POST THEM TO A SITE FIRST, LIKE MOBILE ME?

Another point -- I was just watching HGTV and discovered (duh!!) that an easy way to test a bathroom exhaustt to see if it is working is to put a tissue up at the vent and it should stick to it if it is taking in air. We have a large ceiling exhaust fan over the commode next door to the shower and always have it on after showering to try and reduce moisture. I just tested it, and it's not drawing in any air at all!!! I'm sure that isn't helping our potential mold and mildew problem on the tiles. Does a plumber install exhaust fans? Who do I call for this, as this is the first thing I need to do to have decent exhaust in the bathroom without having to open the window all the time and let cold air in the house.

[hj]

The typical "garden tub" did NOT have a "shower pan", because it was below floor level and they did not worry about a leak causing damage to the floors or walls of the building, but they also felt that since it was "cast in place, that it would NOT crack and develop leaks in the first place. I cannot tell you why the joint is ALWAYS damp, unless you also have a problem with a water leak, (but not likely a drain leak), under the floor.

[johnfrwhipple]

Is this the only shower in your home?

Any chance you have spare tiles?

Try posting your photo's into "Photobucket" and then uploading them...



Once you make an account - Select Save and Continue.

Mouse over the picture and click on the bottom tap and it will copy the text need to place that picture in the body of this message...



My best guess is that you have either have ground water entering back in from around the drain or have a crack in the waterproofing system.

If no waterproofing system was used at all as suggested this could make for an extensive repair. Do you have a budget for the repairs?

Are you a "Handy Andy"?

Surface membranes are the way to go for sure. I would suggest you work with a Liquid Applied Surface Membrane as these are much easier to use and do not build up in the corners. If you where to use Kerdi your build up in the corners would be at least 3/16" and if you used Nobel TS it would be even more. The fact that you have a tub to work with as well will make for a very tricky install using Schluters or Nobels Products. If you know how to "Paint" you can fix this shower of yours with Hydro Ban, Redguard, Aqua Defense etc.

I would like to see if it can dry out without being used. Could you bathe and shower in another room and run a fan over the tile floor to speed up drying for a week?

A side note about John Bridge's web site is that it is geared to promote EBook Downloads. Our friend Jim here recommends John Bridge's site almost every week. Kerdi for this application would be a huge mistake. Spending $10.00 for an EBook a waste of money (that would pay for a nice new paint brush). John Bridge is also retired as are most of the heavy posters on his site. I build showers every week here in Vancouver and have no EBook. Terry's site here is filled with amazing plumbers and I am always impressed with the depth of their knowledge.

I always suggest to people to ask online helpers who they are? If they are insured? and how long they have been incorporated.

I would like to help for free. It's good Karma. Here in Vancouver I get my new work (which people pay me for) from the internet. Many people find me right here, because I'm helping people. And round and round we go... For sure go to John Bridge's site and search for info... just keep your $10.00 for a nice new paint brush.

If you need information on building a Kerdi Shower why not go to Schluter.com - it's all online with video. No charge.



JW

[Estelle]

Well, unforunately neither I nor my husband are handy at all -- so I doubt we will be doing any repairs on our own. We have tried not using the shower for a week, and it was still wet in that one area by the drain. Didn't run a fan, though. Are you saying that there is some kind of a clear liquid membrane that can be painted over the tile floor of the shower? What we don't want to do is tear the shower apart for a fix BEFORE we remodel, as that would be a wasted effort. I can live with the discoloration, but am mostly concerned about serious damage to the foundation of the house. If the shower is below ground level and there is a crack in the waterproofing system, or no waterproofing system allowing groundwater to enter, why is it just coming in at that one spot? And can that condition cause major damage to the house if left for another year or two? I loaded photos on Photobucket and will try to post them now. Here's the link to photos on Photobucket: http://s1093.photobucket.com/albums/i430/safarigirl20/

[jadnashua]

If there's no organic material (wood, primarily) underneath that can rot out, a leak there probably won't do much other than promote mildew on the surface. You can probably leave well enough alone until you decide to remodel. Then, building it right should resolve the problem. Any clue where the water table is?

[johnfrwhipple]

I don't like that the spot is still wet after a week and don't think it's wise to leave it as is. I can understand your wish not to renovate before you renovate but it is most times wiser to error on the side of safety. Are you completely renovating your home and changing the foot print or just doing a large face lift?

Is it possible to address this room sooner than later?

The liquid membrane I speak of is a water proofing layer that goes on under the tile. If you had called me up here in Vancouver I would advise you that we remove the floor tile around the drain and the bottom course of two of tile to inspect. Wet walls and floors invite mold and bugs. Both of which can be very harmful to your home and your health.



This picture leads me to believe that you may have a slow leak in a water supply line or possible ground water entering in through a crack in your foundation. Jim's question about the water table is a good one and determining the water table in relation to your shower may shed more light on the problem.

Liquid applied waterproofing is not designed to hold back water from the outside coming in so if you where to discover a crack in your foundation or slab you could be looking at more costly repairs.

What is the scope of work for your future remodel? Are you adding a floor? Expanding?

When did you first notice the problem and how long did it take to get worse?

JW

[Estelle]

As to the water table -- how does one determine that? I have no idea what the water table is for this area, or who would even know that. And what would knowing the water table level tell me about our problem? Our remodel plans are just for this master bath, not the whole house. The white tile in the shower was a poor choice and is dangerously slippery, the wide grout a pain to keep clean, and the whole sunken shower/tub is an outdated concept and something we would like to get rid of entirely. So what we really want to do is bring in a designer to reconfigure the entire bathroom, use new materials throughout, and make the best possible use of the space available. High on our priority list will be a leak-proof walk-in shower! But again, the economy being what it is, we weren't prepared to launch into this project for another year or two. As for your other questions -- I think we first noticed the discoloration about three years ago. It started with a small discolored spot in the grout that wouldn't come clean. And now the discoloration is about one tile length long as you see in the picture, but still seems confined to that area. I don't see signs of tiles loosening or anything like that. No bugs. But I do get mildew. We recently had the grout in the shower cleaned and sealed and that got rid of the mildew, but now it's coming back in little spots here and there, and of course when they sealed the grout they told us there was nothing they could do with that discolored area because of the fact that they couldn't get it to stay dry. I am planning to replace the non-functioning exhaust fan immediately. Have a guy coming out to bid the job on Monday. He's recommending we spend about three or four hundred dollars on a really good industrial-strength exhaust fan (or I can opt for a cheaper one for about one or two hundred dollars) to help keep the moisture level in the bathroom down. And he said even if we remodel, they can reuse the fan -- even if they have to relocate it.

[Estelle]

Sorry, no clue about the water table level, and I wouldn't know who to ask. I guess my dilemma is, not knowing how sunken tubs are built, I don't know if there is wood underneath there or not. Do you?

[jadnashua]

Does anyone around you have a well? Any idea how deep they had to drill? Are there ponds, streams, lakes nearby? Any springs around you know of? My mother's house sits about 1/4-mile from the town's spring fed water supply, and her basement has nearly constant water seeping in to the sump, that needs to be pumped out. If the water table is high, it could be ground water seeping in, and not anything from the shower's supply lines, or drain system. I've heard really good things about Panasonic bathroom exhaust fans...very quiet and reliable. Come in all sorts of sizes. Fantec also makes some nice ones. The thing to keep in mind is the sone (or sound) level...the lower the number, the quieter it is.

[Estelle]

Thanks for the advice on exhaust fans. I'll ask the electrician about those. I guess the quieter, the better. As for the water table thing -- I doubt the water table is high. We live in an urban area, in a nice neighborhood of custom homes on 1/4 acre each, and our house is nearly at the top of a hill with our street ending in a cul de sac. Noone has their own wells. We all have city water. No ponds or lakes or streams nearby either.