New toilet problems

My husband and I had our upstairs bathroom gutted and remodeled 2 months ago. I knew there was a problem with the toilet (American Standard Champion 4) when the sewer smell started and moisture on the floor on either side of the toilet in a certain spot. We called the contractor back and he replaced the seal. The problem continued, at which point we gave up and called a plumber. Plumber pulled the toilet and showed me how the existing seal was a mess and wasn't even sitting on the flange properly. Sorry if I use incorrect terms at times but I know nothing about plumbing. I watched the plumber install a new seal with a sleeve on it, and also noticed myself that the flange was not tight to the floor. He added some screws so the flange fit tight. From reading many forums I knew the flange should be even with the floor which it is. Since we put the new toilet in, you can hear the washer drain and the sump pump run in the toilet; water in the toilet bowl moves back and forth but does not seem to lose any volume. The plumber said he had no idea why we would hear the noise. I'm still getting some moisture between the toilet and floor, but is not constant. I'm thoroughly confused as to which direction to move in next. I'm not sure at this point if the toilet is defective or not. As we've already spent a fortune on this remodel, I hate to call a plumber back again if he has to guess to figure out what's wrong. I should be enjoying this new bathroom and I hate it. Any idea how to test anything to find out what's actually going on here? Any advice would be most appreciated. Thanks!

Eva Shanley said:

From reading many forums I knew the flange should be even with the floor which it is. !

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The flange should sit on top of the finished floor. If it is even or below you may need an extra thick wax rin or possibly 2 wax rings stacked.

Eva Shanley said:

Since we put the new toilet in, you can hear the washer drain and the sump pump run in the toilet; water in the toilet bowl moves back and forth but does not seem to lose any volume. The plumber said he had no idea why we would hear the noise. I'm still getting some moisture between the toilet and floor, but is not constant.

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Water in the toilet bowl should not move back and forth when the washer drains if the drain vent is open and not clogged. Assuming that the contractor who did the remodel installed a proper vent. Did you have the toilet moved during the remodel?

The valve in the toilet tank (assume that's what you're referring to as the sump pump in the toilet) allowing water into the tank and your still getting moisture on the floor does not indicate that the wax ring is leaking. Instead it indicates a leak in the tank causing the water level in the tank to drop which drops the float which tells the valve to let more water into the tank. There are only three ways water from the tank can "leak" onto the floor. 1) The sealing washers for the bolts holding the tank to the bowl are leaking. 2) The joint between the tank and the bowl is leaking (but this would not drop the water level in the tank so is not your problem now). 3) There's a crack in the tank that is hard to see. EDIT: There is a forth way also. 4) A leak where the fill valve assembly comes out at the bottom of the tank.

We had a hairline crack in the upper part of a toilet "bowl" once that was very difficult to see unless one was looking for it. It would only leak when the toilet was flushed and water swirled around the upper part of the bowl. Just mentioning this to let you know how a barely visible hairline crack can cause moisture to form on the floor. You could look for hairline cracks in your toilet bowl too, just in case. But a leak from the bowl cannot drop the water level in the tank so will not cause the valve in the tank to let more water into the tank.

EDIT: Just had another thought. Is the washing machine on the same floor as the toilet, or is it on a lower floor? If it's on the same floor, the vibration of the washing machine might be transferring to the toilet allowing the tank to vibrate on the bowl. The water in the tank might be leaking at the bolts that secure the tank to the bowl during the vibration which would cause the valve in the tank to let more water into the tank only when the washing machine is running. Maybe try running your hands around the toilet bowl under the tank while the washer is running to see if any water is leaking and this is what's happening. Just trying to think of different possibilities here.

My take as a home DIY'er anyway,
HRG

You should not have any water at the bottom of the toilet unless you have a leak, put some food coloring in the tank, let it sit for a while and check for color near the floor, if you get some that indicates that you have a leak in the tank, do the same for the bowl

Thanks for the responses

Sorry if I was a little confusing. I meant that when the sump pump that is downstairs starts to run, I can hear it I'm in the new upstairs bathroom, and the water in the toilet moves slightly. I don't seem to lose any water volume from either the toilet or the tank, but there's some reason I'm getting moisture. Could be a very small crack in the tank although I've been checking feverishly. The toilet was moved during the remodel; the old one went out and the new one went in. Wish I still had the old one. The plumber put in an extra thick wax ring so I don't think the ring has anything to do with this. I'll keep checking for cracks.

HomeRepairGuy said:

Water in the toilet bowl should not move back and forth when the washer drains if the drain vent is open and not clogged. Assuming that the contractor who did the remodel installed a proper vent. Did you have the toilet moved during the remodel?

The valve in the toilet tank (assume that's what you're referring to as the sump pump in the toilet) allowing water into the tank and your still getting moisture on the floor does not indicate that the wax ring is leaking. Instead it indicates a leak in the tank causing the water level in the tank to drop which drops the float which tells the valve to let more water into the tank. There are only three ways water from the tank can "leak" onto the floor. 1) The sealing washers for the bolts holding the tank to the bowl are leaking. 2) The joint between the tank and the bowl is leaking (but this would not drop the water level in the tank so is not your problem now). 3) There's a crack in the tank that is hard to see.

We had a hairline crack in the upper part of a toilet "bowl" once that was very difficult to see unless one was looking for it. It would only leak when the toilet was flushed and water swirled around the upper part of the bowl. Just mentioning this to let you know how a barely visible hairline crack can cause moisture to form on the floor. You could look for hairline cracks in your toilet bowl too, just in case. But a leak from the bowl cannot drop the water level in the tank so will not cause the valve in the tank to let more water into the tank.

EDIT: Just had another thought. Is the washing machine on the same floor as the toilet, or is it on a lower floor? If it's on the same floor, the vibration of the washing machine might be transferring to the toilet allowing the tank to vibrate on the bowl. The water in the tank might be leaking at the bolts that secure the tank to the bowl during the vibration which would cause the valve in the tank to let more water into the tank only when the washing machine is running. Maybe try running your hands around the toilet bowl under the tank while the washer is running to see if any water is leaking and this is what's happening. Just trying to think of different possibilities here.

My take as a home DIY'er anyway,
HRG

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Condensation forming on the toilet tank and then dripping onto the floor beneath is another possibility. Does anyone
take nice long steamy showers in this bathroom? Next time you discover moisture on the floor, try checking the
sides and bottom of the toilet tank for accumulated condensation.

Eva Shanley said:

Sorry if I was a little confusing. I meant that when the sump pump that is downstairs starts to run, I can hear it I'm in the new upstairs bathroom, and the water in the toilet moves slightly. I don't seem to lose any water volume from either the toilet or the tank, but there's some reason I'm getting moisture. Could be a very small crack in the tank although I've been checking feverishly. The toilet was moved during the remodel; the old one went out and the new one went in. Wish I still had the old one. The plumber put in an extra thick wax ring so I don't think the ring has anything to do with this. I'll keep checking for cracks.

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1. Was the toilet moved to a new location during your remodel?
2. Is the washing machine on the same floor as the problem toilet?
3. Do you ever hear water refilling the tank when the toilet has not been used?

We really cannot give a good diagnosis by just using your description of the problem, partly because YOUR interpretation may not be the correct one. I, and many other plumbers, will NOT use a "seal with a sleeve on it"', because we have seen those CAUSE leaks on the floor. One problem with your description is that if the seal were the cause of the leak, unless you have a tighter floor than most, you should also be getting moisture in the ceiling below. Therefore, the leak you see on the floor could be coming from elsewhere, such as the tank under certain conditions, but not always.

Answers to your questions

HomeRepairGuy said:

1. Was the toilet moved to a new location during your remodel? No, the location is the same.
2. Is the washing machine on the same floor as the problem toilet? Washing machine downstairs, new bathroom upstairs.
3. Do you ever hear water refilling the tank when the toilet has not been used?

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No, I've never heard the toilet refilling.

Thanks for your interest and response.

Eva Shanley said:

1. Was the toilet moved to a new location during your remodel? --- No, the location is the same.

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Sure sounds like the vent is not working properly for water in the bowl to move when the washer or sump pump are used, since neither are on the same floor as the toilet. The vent would be the only direct physical connection from either appliance to your toilet. (BTW, I added a 4th way a tank can leak water on to the floor in my previous post. That's where the fill valve assembly protrudes out at the bottom of the tank.)

Don't blame you for being discouraged after spending a lot of money for a remodel and then having your problems. Will be watching this thread to see what your final fix is.

All the best,
HRG

HRG,
Thanks for getting back to me. Pardon me for being stupid, but exactly where do I look for the vent? As I said I know nothing about plumbing, and my husband doesn't want to know anything about any problems with anything. He's really a pretty good guy but has no patience or knowledge concerning any home repairs. I however, would love to know everything which is why I'm taking a home repair class in Feb.

Eva Shanley said:

HRG,
Thanks for getting back to me. Pardon me for being stupid, but exactly where do I look for the vent? As I said I know nothing about plumbing, and my husband doesn't want to know anything about any problems with anything. He's really a pretty good guy but has no patience or knowledge concerning any home repairs. I however, would love to know everything which is why I'm taking a home repair class in Feb.

Click to expand...

The vent is a pipe that's normally enclosed in a double wall (vertical studs with walls on both sides) and goes up through the roof. It allows water to drain without trying to siphon water from drain traps. There are drain traps for every drain incuding the sinks, toilets, tubs and showers. The traps hold water to prevent sewer gases from coming into your home. Look under a sink and you will see it. The trap for the toilet is built into the bowl which is why there is always water in the toilet bowl. Here's a picture showing a waste drain system with a vent:



And a link to that image with a very good explanation of vents:
http://www.inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Plumbing_Vent_Definitions.htm

In the picture, the pipe that's labeled "Stack Vent" (and the pipe above it) is where a partial clog might be in your case since it's above the point where the toilet drains into the "Soil Stack". Water draining from appliances on a lower floor that share the same soil stack & vent would create a suction on the toilet if the stack vent is partially obstructed, moving the water in the bowl. (Note that in this particular picture, the obstruction would be above the point where the basin is vented, but your setup may be different. Also note that typically there are separate vents for the bathrooms, kitchen and laundry room. One vent for each location so 3 pipes sticking out of the roof.)

EDIT: BTW, did anyone put a cap on the vent to keep stuff out? If the cap doesn't allow free air flow then that's your problem. Or if your vent pipe is fully open, then some thing like a plastic bag, bird or rodent might have gone into it causing a partial blockage. I've also heard stories where roofers accidentally dropped a soft drink container into a roof vent.

HRG