posting here

[jimbo]

Let me be the devils advocate...at the risk of starting a firestorm.

You have the luxury of taking a somewhat high and mighty attitude with respect to the NEC, because it is a National Standard, and of course who can argue about safety!

With plumbing, we are also concerned about the health and safety of the populace, AND we have to deal with codes that vary from state to state, and town to town, and in California can vary from building to building .

Plumbers argue about the appropriateness and interpretation of codes all the time. I have noticed plenty of articles on the internet where the "sensibility" of code sections is questioned, as is the motivation of those who write the codes. Just like it is in the plumbing codes.


Anyway, we don't want anyone hurting themselves with gas, or backflow, or carbon monoxide, or with electrons.

When obviously incorrect or unsafe information is posted in any category, we hope a moderator or another forum member will jump in on it. As for deleting posts, especially in electrical, we will leave that to the electricians and Terry. I don't know what was up in some of the threads....but for the reocord this moderator did not delete any posts, even if we would like to invite Ian to a Boston Tea Party!

[jwelectric]

I have not deleted any post either and would not unless the information contained therein was a life safety issue or it was someone who was outright slandering someone else.

As a moderator on other sites I will usually contact the person making a questionable post through a private message to inform them there are treading on thin ice. I will give them a chance to correct their mistake their self but if they don’t then I will take the appropriate action.

As to code issues I am always looking to discuss in a respectful manner any issues that come into question.
One is Arc-Fault devices and how they would relate to today’s installation.
Another would be metal water pipe bonding as has already been discussed here.

[ballvalve]

As to a firestorm, Mr. JW, proud owner of a sticky, and starter of the 'be wise' thread, advocates a rather bizzare circuit under the SPDT switch thread for a wall heater that no electrician would dare place under his liability insurance policy, or in his home.

His replys to mine are often disrespectful and insulting, and absurd under the rules of common sense, common practice, and safety.

My replys, indeed are often cutting, ironic and of dark humor, but the intent is to inspire thinking outside the box rather than a blind reading of a set of laws that have inherent flaws.

So the moderator here will have a hard river to row in.

[Speedy Petey]

As to a firestorm, Mr. JW, proud owner of a sticky, and starter of the 'be wise' thread, advocates a rather bizzare circuit under the SPDT switch thread for a wall heater that no electrician would dare place under his liability insurance policy, or in his home.

Why do you feel the need to include this content from another heated thread? What does this have to do with the original post here??? WHY do you feel the need to add even more erroneous statements like; "...that no electrician would dare place under his liability insurance policy, or in his home.", and "..., and absurd under the rules of common sense, common practice, and safety."


All you are doing is perpetuating the negative stereotype that engineers have. Most of what you post is hearsay and highly opinionated statements, not fact.

[Terry]

I think I delete more posts then anyone here.
The licensed electricians here are have a tough time, trying to keep the information here safe and useful.
Me personally not being licensed to do electrical, will have to rely on those that can and do.

I sub my electrical out.

[jwelectric]

As to a firestorm, Mr. JW, proud owner of a sticky, and starter of the 'be wise' thread, advocates a rather bizzare circuit under the SPDT switch thread for a wall heater that no electrician would dare place under his liability insurance policy, or in his home.

I beg to differ with this statement as I have made this installation on several occasions as well as have repaired such installations made by others. It is a very common installation in low income projects of years past.

His replys to mine are often disrespectful and insulting, and absurd under the rules of common sense, common practice, and safety.

Many complain of persons being disrespectful when they don’t set in agreement with each other. I have not intentionally been disrespectful to anyone except when they are so far off base that it would be an easy out or is down right dangerous.

My replys, indeed are often cutting, ironic and of dark humor, but the intent is to inspire thinking outside the box rather than a blind reading of a set of laws that have inherent flaws.

No matter if there is flaws in out system or not it is our system. As someone who feels they have a right to make this statement I simply say that if you don’t like our system please feel free to leave.

So the moderator here will have a hard river to row in.

Why would you make such a statement? What is its purpose? Was it intended as a threat of some kind?
If you would like to continue a discussion about how hard a river as a moderator I will have to row in I would suggest it be as private messages.

[hj]

quote; I sub my electrical out.

I don't usually, unless it is something I just don't want to do then I tell the electricians how to do it. (such as converting a water heater to 3 phase, or single phase with simultaneous operation). I have done troubleshooting for electricians since I was an apprentice, sometimes for some "off the wall" thing that requires more logic than testing.

[Ian Gills]

Ian to a Boston Tea Party!

I'd love to visit Boston.

The tea you dumped there has never been recovered. And that gets me.

On electrical, I do most myself. Not heavy ups though.

That's what I like about the NEC. It is a very clear instruction manual, although a long one.

[ballvalve]

Why would you make such a statement? What is its purpose? Was it intended as a threat of some kind?
If you would like to continue a discussion about how hard a river as a moderator I will have to row in I would suggest it be as private messages.

To quote the famous movie line "What I think we have here is a failure to communicate"

I save threats [actually promises] for thieves and other physcopathic types presenting imminent harm. In spite of your NEC love, I would not suggest you to be anywhere near that category.

What it meant was: A sypathetic view toward those that must sift through thousands of sentences and find the truths and the delusions.

And its never fair because each electrician has his OWN right way, no matter the section 456.8787.990 and so on.

[ballvalve]

quote; I sub my electrical out.

I don't usually, unless it is something I just don't want to do then I tell the electricians how to do it. (such as converting a water heater to 3 phase, or single phase with simultaneous operation). I have done troubleshooting for electricians since I was an apprentice, sometimes for some "off the wall" thing that requires more logic than testing.

How would you convert a standard water heater to 3 phase? Are elements made that fit the standard hole in a WH?

[jwelectric]

How would you convert a standard water heater to 3 phase? Are elements made that fit the standard hole in a WH?

here is one way

http://www.seisco.com/pages/electrical-F-wiring.html

Check out each link to the wiring diagram

EDITED TO ADD

But you already knew how to do this with all your electrical expertise did you not?
Yes that was meant to be asinine

[jwelectric]

To quote the famous movie line "What I think we have here is a failure to communicate"

I save threats [actually promises] for thieves and other physcopathic types presenting imminent harm. In spite of your NEC love, I would not suggest you to be anywhere near that category.

What it meant was: A sypathetic view toward those that must sift through thousands of sentences and find the truths and the delusions.

And its never fair because each electrician has his OWN right way, no matter the section 456.8787.990 and so on.

No matter how many different opinions there are out there, there is only one right way of doing anything electrical and that is the way mandated by the adopted rules in the jurisdiction in which the work is being done and it doesn’t matter if me or you disagree with each other or the adopted rules or not.

Listening to you reminds me of something I read once that was written by columnist named Sidney Harris. It goes like this;

“There is nothing more dangerous than a person with a good mind who begins to reason, logically and coolly, but from insufficient premises; for his answers will always be valid, justified, rational—and wrong.”

I don’t suppose I have ever heard any truer words spoken before in my life.

[ballvalve]

Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.”

These are truer words for me.

But you already knew how to do this with all your electrical expertise did you not?
Yes that was meant to be asinine

Good that you identified it as asinine and off topic. Funny how I get warnings when I do that.

Your link is irrelevant, its a machine designed for multiple voltages and phases. I asked how HJ converted a standard res. water heater to 3 phase. I never saw a 3 phase standard 1.5" screw in element. Which would not work with the stock thermostats anyway. I suppose I could concoct something, logically and cooly, but the premise would be insufficient and not meet the NEC's godly rules.

http://www.wallingfordsales.com/prod...c_water_heater

Anyway, looks like one needs a dedicated 3 phase water heater, and specialized elements and switching equipment, perhaps why HJ did not respond.

[Ian Gills]

We're almost back to speeding in school zones, which I deleted last time despite it being a real gem.

Anyway, my point was that round here school zones are an excuse to put in speed cameras at locations nowhere near the school but just within the half-mile limit as the crow flies so pesky States can milk the revenues. We need to ban States and go for a Big Federal Solution.

School zones are also used to enforce ridiculous speed limits (e.g. 20 mph).

How tickets for breaking such crazy limits stand up to challenges in the court in this country is beyond me.

But then again, I probably answered my own question......in this country.

[ballvalve]

The kids with all their piercings and mohawk haircuts, tattoo's and goth clothes are pretty easy to see, and stand in the road and chat anyway, so 20 mph is pretty much a max speed no matter what.

Funny how the county fair here has 800 people - kids, great granma's, teens, dreaded adults, walking and parking along a 60 MPH hi-way, half drunk, and you can still mow them down at 60 mph legally.