Speedy Petey
Licensed Electrical Contractor
Odd, yes, sort of......................... this odd wiring scheme.
Legal and SAFE, also YES!
Just because you don't understand this stuff fully please don't criticize those of us that do!
Odd, yes, sort of......................... this odd wiring scheme.
True, but it specifically refers to the fact that a built-in receptacle can be used in place of one specified in 210.52(B), meaning they don't want the heater shared with a general use receptacle.If you look at NFPA 70 you will see a prohibition against connecting the built in receptacles on a baseboard heater to the heater circuit.
Well, it is obviously not clear cut so that gives an AHJ quite a bit of leverage if they choose.I know for an absolute fact any 120 volt receptacle on the heater circuit would not pass in Detroit; commercial or residential. I can also name several other jurisdictions where 424.9 (or is it .10? I forgot) has been firmly judged to mean no receptacle outlets on the heater circuit.
What I or we would do is irrelevant here IMO. The question has become is it legal to have 120v A/C and 240v electric heat load share a common MWBC. IMO yes.Please don't forget about the possibility of this receptacle outlet being in a room requiring protection by an arc fault device. I suggest you keep it simple and straight forward. I'd separate the heater circuit.
I am sorry if you don’t understand this concept and your lacking of understanding goes to prove how important that someone working on an electrical system have some kind of knowledge of what they are doing other than what they read posted on the web. It is also why so many states require a license for someone entering the electrical contracting field.
What a complete and utter JOKE!! I literally LOL'd when I read this!I intuitively and historically understand electric circuits so well that I do not hide behind obscure and worthless quotes from the NEC. For you to pursue this obtuse circuit as being "allowed", makes me think you may be imbued with knowledge of the law but inept when it comes to pulling a wire and thinking about how it will interface with actual, daily use.
Through out the 1980s I wired multifamily dwellings all up and down the Eastern Seaboard. In quite a few of these units I would pull a 20 amp circuit to a single receptacle for an air conditioner and from there to multiple thermostats for baseboard heat. Not only was this passed by the local inspector but also by the Federal HUD inspector as some of these units were low rent projects.Posted by marne rock.....
I intuitively and historically understand electric circuits so well that I do not hide behind obscure and worthless quotes from the NEC. For you to pursue this obtuse circuit as being "allowed", makes me think you may be imbued with knowledge of the law but inept when it comes to pulling a wire and thinking about how it will interface with actual, daily use.
Hello and welcome to the discussion. For clarity I will post the two code sections you mentioned.My Thoughts:
A) I absolutely would not share the heater circuit with a receptacle outlet. If you look at NFPA 70 you will see a prohibition against connecting the built in receptacles on a baseboard heater to the heater circuit. (I don't have the code book in front of me right now, but I believe it is 424.9) Logic would dictate that the AHJ would also object to a "not-built-in" receptacle outlet wired from the heater circuit. You can always ask for "Special Permission" (See 424.10, I believe it is)
Now to help us better understand the NEC let me post one more section of that same Article.424.9 General.
All fixed electric space-heating equipment shall be installed in an approved manner.
Permanently installed electric baseboard heaters equipped with factory-installed receptacle outlets, or outlets provided as a separate listed assembly, shall be permitted in lieu of a receptacle outlet(s) that is required by 210.50(B). Such receptacle outlets shall not be connected to the heater circuits.
FPN: Listed baseboard heaters include instructions that may not permit their installation below receptacle outlets.
424.10 Special Permission.
Fixed electric space-heating equipment and systems installed by methods other than covered by this article shall be permitted only by special permission.
Don’t know if anyone has ever seen or installed any 120 volt baseboard heaters or not but I have included them on a general branch circuit. It might also be good to know just how figuring the load for a branch circuit takes place.424.22 Overcurrent Protection.
(A) Branch-Circuit Devices. Electric space-heating equipment, other than such motor-operated equipment as required by Articles 430 and 440 to have additional overcurrent protection, shall be permitted to be protected against overcurrent where supplied by one of the branch circuits in Article 210.
Being that no one would be operating their baseboard heat and an air conditioner at the same time one can be omitted in the calculation.220.60 Noncoincident Loads.
Where it is unlikely that two or more noncoincident loads will be in use simultaneously, it shall be permissible to use only the largest load(s) that will be used at one time for calculating the total load of a feeder or service.
Being that no one would be operating their baseboard heat and an air conditioner at the same time one can be omitted in the calculation.
Completely and blatantly irrelevant.No one should be driving their car, talking on a cell, eating fried chicken and a beer at the same time but it happens every day.
You earlier said things like this are likely. What you are describing are rare and unlikely occurances.Sounds like you don't have any low ball renters or have not been in some of the low rent tenements. How about granma with early alzheimers? She will run the AC full blast because she cant figure why its so damn hot inthe house [baseboard on all summer].
"Because they almost certainly will not be on at the same time"
This is awkward, but...
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