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Thread: SPDT double-throw switch

  1. #31
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bird Doo Head View Post
    My Thoughts:
    A) I absolutely would not share the heater circuit with a receptacle outlet. If you look at NFPA 70 you will see a prohibition against connecting the built in receptacles on a baseboard heater to the heater circuit. (I don't have the code book in front of me right now, but I believe it is 424.9) Logic would dictate that the AHJ would also object to a "not-built-in" receptacle outlet wired from the heater circuit. You can always ask for "Special Permission" (See 424.10, I believe it is)
    Hello and welcome to the discussion. For clarity I will post the two code sections you mentioned.
    424.9 General.
    All fixed electric space-heating equipment shall be installed in an approved manner.
    Permanently installed electric baseboard heaters equipped with factory-installed receptacle outlets, or outlets provided as a separate listed assembly, shall be permitted in lieu of a receptacle outlet(s) that is required by 210.50(B). Such receptacle outlets shall not be connected to the heater circuits.
    FPN: Listed baseboard heaters include instructions that may not permit their installation below receptacle outlets.
    424.10 Special Permission.
    Fixed electric space-heating equipment and systems installed by methods other than covered by this article shall be permitted only by special permission.
    Now to help us better understand the NEC let me post one more section of that same Article.
    424.22 Overcurrent Protection.
    (A) Branch-Circuit Devices. Electric space-heating equipment, other than such motor-operated equipment as required by Articles 430 and 440 to have additional overcurrent protection, shall be permitted to be protected against overcurrent where supplied by one of the branch circuits in Article 210.
    Don’t know if anyone has ever seen or installed any 120 volt baseboard heaters or not but I have included them on a general branch circuit. It might also be good to know just how figuring the load for a branch circuit takes place.
    220.60 Noncoincident Loads.
    Where it is unlikely that two or more noncoincident loads will be in use simultaneously, it shall be permissible to use only the largest load(s) that will be used at one time for calculating the total load of a feeder or service.
    Being that no one would be operating their baseboard heat and an air conditioner at the same time one can be omitted in the calculation.

    Nowhere in either 210 or 424 does it forbid the installation of a 120 or 240 volt AC receptacle on the same circuit as baseboard heat. No this is not like wiring a pool pump on the same circuit as a rooftop swamp cooler either as some keep throwing out there.

    Pete or Paul I would love to hear you thoughts on this.

  2. #32
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Being that no one would be operating their baseboard heat and an air conditioner at the same time one can be omitted in the calculation.
    No one should be driving their car, talking on a cell, eating fried chicken and a beer at the same time but it happens every day.

    Sounds like you don't have any low ball renters or have not been in some of the low rent tenements. How about granma with early alzheimers? She will run the AC full blast because she cant figure why its so damn hot inthe house [baseboard on all summer].

    Sorry, but circuit breakers, in my extra-ordinarily humble opinion, are not designed to educate the public.

    Dedicated circuits remove the stupidity factor and do not cost much more.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 01-02-2011 at 02:09 PM.

  3. #33
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Now come on we all know that you have enough electrical knowledge that should the heat and a
    AC be on at the same time it wouldn’t last long. The breaker would limit the time they both were on. Now Grandma in her mental state wouldn’t be resetting the breaker would she.

    As to your analogy of drinking and driving shows …………..well I just won’t go there.

  4. #34
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    No one should be driving their car, talking on a cell, eating fried chicken and a beer at the same time but it happens every day.
    Completely and blatantly irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    Sounds like you don't have any low ball renters or have not been in some of the low rent tenements. How about granma with early alzheimers? She will run the AC full blast because she cant figure why its so damn hot inthe house [baseboard on all summer].
    You earlier said things like this are likely. What you are describing are rare and unlikely occurances.
    If this does happen on a rare ocassion the breaker will simply do it's job and trip. No harm, no foul.

  5. #35
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    I suspect if I had proposed the original wiring scheme, you guys would have found a way to make it illegal.

    I suppose we will just have to follow our own mindset and concept of BEST use of circuit breakers.

    One last shot for you guys to jump on: Ever see a thermostat without a HEAT/COOL switch? Seems like your premise would allow me to install a seperate heating and cooling unit and thermostats, then run the 2 sets of wires to one breaker. "Because they probably, maybe, shouldnt be on at the same time" - hey, the breaker will fix the mistake!

  6. #36
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Something that I just can’t understand about this discussion and what you are saying BallValve.

    We have on several different occasions made the comment that a receptacle for a window AC unit and a baseboard heater can be on the same circuit but you insist on inserting several different appliances and wiring methods into the discussion.

    Why is this??????

  7. #37
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    I would call it extrapolation. But the failure to communicate would be the better and hopefully final answer.

  8. #38
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Here. I fixed it for you:
    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    "Because they almost certainly will not be on at the same time"

  9. #39
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Thanks, that settles it. Now get out there and wire up some silly circuits.

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